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On 08/07/2016 11:55 AM, Kent Fredric wrote: |
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> Moving this to a higher visibility thread because I don't know how many |
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> people think such an intense discussion is happening in the tail of a |
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> package assignment ..... :P |
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> |
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> Most of my negativity/limitations are more about making sure we define |
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> where we aught to go. |
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> |
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> They're less "Limits", more "guides", often enough. |
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> |
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> On Sun, 7 Aug 2016 12:24:37 -0500 |
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> james <garftd@×××××××.net> wrote: |
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>> Sure, I agree here, but, statistically these "hi level" languages are |
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>> being taught, in lieu of C; and that is really sad. I'm sure there |
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>> are exceptions, would you have a few CS departments that push C over |
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>> java and the other, newer languages? (I'm curios). |
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> |
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> |
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> Here, the "Limitation" as such is that once you realise that "C" is not |
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> the only target, nor is Java, you realise there are going to be end |
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> users who want "easy mode" and have no intent on doing any immediate |
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> development work. |
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> |
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> Or we might have user bases who want ready-to-go media for python |
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> development. |
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> |
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> This is not a "limitation", because if you think about customization, |
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> we can very much provide all the choices. |
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> |
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> And theoretically, we can provide named sets of default good choices |
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> that are "reasonably good for the purpose they describe", and then |
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> people can pick and choose what they want, and then if they want to |
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> expert-mode it, they can hand craft their own "choice set", or progress |
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> to installing their base system like the rest of us. |
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|
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You are diverging onto a very minor issue, about kids and college |
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educations. But, we do have "sets" and they are very useful for a |
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variety of goals with portage. Thanks for pointing that fact out. |
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|
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|
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> |
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>> |
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>>> |
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>>> You can't satisfy everyone out of the box. |
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>>> |
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>>> |
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>>> The rest of your response kinda rotates around a central axiom that |
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>>> makes other Linux distributions effective, and "Easy": |
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>>> |
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>>> The lack of choice, a tailored work flow, a target audience, and a |
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>>> narrow focus on what the vendor delivers. |
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>>> |
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>>> Gentoo is fundamentally unlike these things, because the Gentoo way |
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>>> has always been first and foremost about *user choice* and |
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>>> *maximising user choice* |
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>> |
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>> Noting in promoting an easy install semantic for a default, buildable |
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>> system, precludes choice after the system is installed and boot. For |
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>> examle a default install, using Calamares and ending up with KDE, |
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>> could easily then have kde removed and lxqt installed. That would be |
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>> up to the new user to figure out, via the handbook and the wiki.... |
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>> |
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>> |
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>>> The reality is a giant hunk of the world are *not interested in |
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>>> choice* They want something that works and get out of their way. |
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>> |
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>> Quite true, but we're talking about increasing gentoo's update |
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>> amongst those linux leaners, not converting windows/mac users that |
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>> are not interested in alternatives.... |
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>> |
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>>> |
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>>> That's why proprietary systems with deep, vertical architecture and |
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>>> product lock-in are still incredibly popular. |
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>>> They understand their market, and they focus on making things work |
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>>> for that market by tailoring it to a very narrow set of features |
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>>> that satisfies 95% of its target. |
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>> |
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>> Support is always a crowd pleaser, imho. So with fresh ideas, the |
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>> newest members support those right behind them in line with user |
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>> level issues. Noobs helping noobs. buntu has proven this works, if |
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>> nothing else. |
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>> |
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>>> |
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>>> Gentoo's target audience is decidedly that other 5%, the group of |
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>>> people who don't mind getting their hands dirty, the group who wade |
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>>> up to their elbows dealing with horrible problems because that's the |
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>>> consequence of the power of choice. |
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>> |
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>> What I proposed, models for easier install and a VM/Container system |
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>> that is secure and allow for experimentation with "jentoo" does not |
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>> limit, but, encourage choice and experimentation. |
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>> |
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>> Let's focus on the easy install. Once folks get a running gentoo |
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>> system, most figure out how to manage it and like the choices, build |
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>> from sources (and bin packages for the larger/complex). |
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>> |
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>>> |
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>>> You can promote pre-boxed Gentoo products if you want, I just think |
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>>> you're barking up the wrong tree if you think doing that will help |
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>>> anybody. |
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>> |
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>> You are misconstruing the message. It's a boxed, quick install that |
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>> would behave going forward, with the same (exact) semantics as a |
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>> grudge-filled traditional install. The only difference is that first |
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>> install is |
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>> quick, fast and easy. Nothing else changes, unless this fresh install |
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>> chooses to embrace additional packaging or alternative packages |
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>> compare to the default install. Nobody needs to make that decision. |
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>> Surely many will then go read the handbook and the wiki to move |
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>> forward. The install just becomes painless for a few basic or default |
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>> examples. We do currently provide an occasional 'liveDVD'. So just |
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>> image one of those, with an easy install pathway. |
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>> |
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>>> |
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>>> As with most open source, it requires volunteer effort to make this |
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>>> happen, and its a hard sell to try to convince existing staff to |
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>>> spend more time on producing a thing that exists only to *reduce* |
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>>> user choice for the sake of convenience. |
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>> |
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>> Again, you are incorrectly suggesting that these easy installs will |
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>> preclude traditional gentoo semantics for adding, modifying, patching, |
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>> or any other form of currently available modifications or enhancement |
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>> from occurring. I'm not certain if you are twisting the focus here |
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>> intentionally, or you are just limited in your imagination? Nobody |
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>> wants that (artificial) limitation, so why would it me the semantic |
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>> going forward, after an easy install? |
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>> |
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>> Think of it like sex. All of the traditional would be wonderfully |
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>> available, but we're just adding a quickie (install) as an extra |
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>> option. No limitations, just *choice* on the install. |
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>> |
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>> |
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>> |
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>>> And I just think most of our devs have more interesting problems to |
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>>> solve than that, and you'd be simply weakening the core Gentoo |
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>>> development team by trying to steal existing Gentoo staff to |
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>>> engineer this carefully designed and polished "Just Works For |
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>>> Noobs" platform. |
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>> |
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>> Agreed. My idea is some encouragement and maybe receive a little bit |
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>> of positive advise. The noobs will help the noobs, and a few will |
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>> migrate down the maintainer--> dev pathway. |
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>> |
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>> On this list and elsewhere gentoo devs have admitted to using quickie |
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>> installs, and liked it. It's just frowned upon to document it and |
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>> encourage it. Like a wiki page on how to convert a calculate or |
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>> sabayon install to a traditional gentoo system. |
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>>> |
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>>> And even then, I think if you did OK, it would be striving for the |
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>>> wrong thing. |
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>> |
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>> An easy install, does not have to be detrimental. Over the years I |
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>> have taught quite a few 'youngsters' how to drive on rural flat land |
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>> in a big 4x4 with an automatic transmission and a booster seat. You |
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>> just put the transfer case into low, and they cannot go very fast and |
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>> the love the *power*, spinning tires and slinging mud and riding |
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>> around. Later on in life they all have matured into productive adults. |
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>> |
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>> Face it, gentoo is a power trip, we all know that. Letting folks feel |
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>> that, in a easy, but real, quick install default version, that |
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>> eventually hooks them into gentoo. |
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>> |
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>> |
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>>> |
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>>> If you're going to come to a competition that has existing major |
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>>> players ( such as the "noob friendly" linux desktop market ), you |
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>>> have to not be simply a "me too!" in order to hope for success. |
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>> |
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>> The power of Gentoo-traditional awaits them, soon after reading and |
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>> learning from the handbook and the wiki. Not all will use this, but, |
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>> it sure would put a more attractive face on taking gentoo for a test |
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>> drive. |
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>> |
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>>> |
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>>> You have to have something unique that blows all the competition |
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>>> out of the water in at least one way, that capitalises on an |
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>>> un-tapped need. |
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>>> |
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>>> Anything else will just be some pathetic copy-cat attempt. |
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>>> |
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>>> And for Gentoo, our "Unique Edge" *is* our configurability, our |
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>>> incredibly effective and convenient flexibility. |
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>> |
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>> Again, nothing in this idea inhibits the full power of gentoo from |
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>> being available; nothing. The begging of (their) journey is easier and |
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>> more appealing. Many will stay in the valley of the noobs, but other |
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>> will turn to the handbook and the wiki; just as grasshopper became |
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>> shaolin, imho. Monk my words..... |
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>> |
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>> |
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>>> |
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>>> Sacrificing our primary benefit to chase after some other market |
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>>> half-assedly ... I can't see that panning out well myself. |
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>> |
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>> You keep with this false choice, that is non-sequitur. The only |
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>> limiting here is your mind. |
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>> |
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>> |
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>>> |
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>>> Personally, I think we need to double down on what we're good at, |
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>>> flexibility, and configurability. |
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>> |
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>> No arguments there. Putting an experimental for of gentoo, complete |
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>> with questionable java, into a secure Gentoo hosted VM or Container, |
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>> is not flexibility and configurability? |
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>> |
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>> |
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>>> |
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>>> Find ways of building systems at the users behest that do exactly |
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>>> what they want easily, and not assume we know what is best for our |
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>>> users. |
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>> |
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>> You should go to any of the progressive job boards (stackoverflow |
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>> etc). Java is everywhere. It should not be mandated but a choice. |
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>> Sincere the are numerous issues java, secure it via a VM or a |
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>> container, if that can be done? |
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>> |
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>> |
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>> |
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>>> |
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>>> Anything else and Gentoo will go in the direction of the sad sorry |
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>>> state of the Linux Desktop, where neither GTK/Gnome or QT/KDE are |
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>>> very useable anymore, and they've become encumbered with horribly |
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>>> lethargic and bloated design, because they were all trying too hard |
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>>> to chase what they thought people wanted, the standard established |
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>>> by Windows and OSX for "Easy". |
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>>> |
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>> Agreed and that is not what I'm proposing, either. I'm proposing an |
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>> easy install for a few types of basic systems (that choice is open to |
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>> discussion). And, if possible, a way to put either a secure VM or a |
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>> secure container on a hardened gentoo system to put an |
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>> insecure/experimental form of jentoo into. |
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> |
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> |
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> Here is my incomplete idea of how I would see this working out in our |
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> favour. |
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> |
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> For one, some context: On Quora, I frequently see questions in the form |
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> "I have <blah> condition and <blah> requirements, what is the right |
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> linux for me and my hardware <blah>" |
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> |
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> There are literally so many such questions its mind-numbing. |
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> |
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> Explaining the nuance and benefits of lots of different alternatives is |
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> a pain in the ass, and it would be nicer to simply say "Gentoo" for |
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> each and every question, then tack onto it "Under configuration X" |
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|
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True, but you miss my previous point on what you have just stated. WE do |
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not have to try to offer a quickie install for every possible scenario; |
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that's a fools errand, imho. Of the myriad of possibilities, |
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|
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|
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Gentoo cold offer but a single, robustly secure workstation running KDE |
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that is a quick install right off the liveDVD. Once it is running, they |
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can just read the handbook and the wiki pages for guidance on |
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deviations. It would update just like a traditional gentoo installed |
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system where after days a traditional install with hardened and kde just |
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happened to end up. Form that point forward, it's gentoo; caveat emptor. |
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|
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One version iso, maybe updated every 3-6 months. That's it; all else is |
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gentoo traditional. |
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|
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|
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> |
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> |
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> Here's what I think would be "Nice". |
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> |
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> 1. "Nice" Installer that did the grunt work, but which grunt work it did |
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> was not actually specified by that installer. |
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> |
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> 2. Instead, the "Nice" installer is fed a recipie file, and the recipie |
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> file glues user input and system configuration together, which the |
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> installer than "Makes happen". |
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|
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Have you tried any of the ansible recipes from here?:: |
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|
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|
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> |
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> 3. Recipie files would in part contain a SHA1 containing the git commit |
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> on repo/gentoo.git that it used to install from, and they would end up |
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> at the end of their execution provisioning /etc/portage and friends, |
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> and finialising an install. |
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> |
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> 4. The key part of relying on "Set of specified configuration and SHA1" |
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> is repeatability. |
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> |
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> Historically a lot of the headaches I've found with Gentoo was you |
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> tried to install your brand new system, and oops, the configuration you |
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> chose ran into some bug and you had to think about things, because the |
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> tree got updated between the time the instructions were written and the |
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> time you tried to do them. |
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|
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experience folks are now creating their own stage-4's for some similar |
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situations. I do think our routine usage of Stage-4 will organically |
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increase; but I'm not sure we have semantics in place to share those |
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gains in wisdom. Individual choice to share must always be respected. |
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|
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|
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> |
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> And that kind of problem is bound to leak into any installer that |
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> installs "Fresh" from updated sources. |
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> |
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> This means with a "recipie + SHA1" combination you can either |
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> |
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> a) Download the recipie only and bootstrap that recipie into a full |
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> system downloading everything as you go |
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> |
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> b) Use that recipie to pre-build resources and assemble installation |
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> media that allows you to perform an identical implementation of a, sans |
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> internet access. |
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> |
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> Though doing both of these would be hard in some cases, because if the |
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> recipie is configuration-free in regards to compile flags, then both |
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> can be done. But if configuration needs to change compilation, 'b' gets |
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> a little trickier. |
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> |
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> Essentially, I'm kinda thinking beyond "Just a thing" and thinking in |
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> the direction more of "A meta thing". |
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> |
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> If you want to make people feel powerful, how much more can you get |
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> than doing what we've done with .ebuilds? |
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> |
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> Ebuild being bash may be a horrible format, but man, every day I use it |
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> and see what everyone else is doing, I just love it. You can get insane |
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> loads of stuff done with incredibly little effort. |
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> |
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> And if you want to give people power trips, what could be more powerful |
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> than empowering everyone to create their own flavour of |
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> gentoo-based linux just by tweaking a bash script? |
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> |
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> Then we'd just have a maintained repository of these recipies that are |
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> vetted by devs and signed. |
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> |
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> And you could even have a net-inst installer that starts out by syncing |
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> that repository and giving you a list of recipies to install from. |
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> |
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> Emerge yourself a whole gentoo :P |
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|
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Sure that could work, but you are making the entire idea, way to |
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cumbersome to implement. Loose the concept of everything; that will |
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occur organically, over time, if validated by the user base. Focus on a |
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singular, common need and simplify that so that noobs could use it to |
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'feel the power' and all could use it for a baseline install. Then drive |
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off what ever direction one chooses, with traditional gentoo semantics |
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going forward. |
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|
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The secure VM/Container/JuniorGentooDistro could wait and organically |
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grow up later on, perhaps offered as a stage-4 install, with a basic |
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doc, once folks figure that pathway out, manually. |
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|
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Blueness has tremendously inspired my thoughts and has provided many of |
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these pieces already. My struggles are good for me and I'm just perhaps |
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sharing a bit too much of my aspirations and pathological pains as I |
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trudge forward in my little world of hope and inspiration. |
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|
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> |
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> NB: I'm really tired, so I'm in that "can't tell if this is brilliance |
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> or deranged rambling" mode. |
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|
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|
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I think that there is synergy. At the very least (with Rich's blessing) |
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I shall trudge forward, as I've been hacking and noodling with many of |
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these ideas, and most have been culled from history in one form or another. |
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|
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|
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hth, |
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James |