Gentoo Archives: gentoo-dev

From: Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@g.o>
To: gentoo-dev@l.g.o
Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Delay in approval of new developers
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 14:18:03
Message-Id: 1158934403.9778.19.camel@inertia.twi-31o2.org
In Reply to: [gentoo-dev] Re: Delay in approval of new developers by Peter
1 I just want to prefix this by saying that I was simply going to ignore
2 your posts in this thread completely due to your obviously inflammatory
3 nature at the beginning. Now that you're posting actual constructive
4 criticisms, I'd like to respond. By the way, thank you for changing
5 your tone to something more productive.
6
7 On Fri, 2006-09-22 at 13:26 +0000, Peter wrote:
8 > Having a democratic organization is great. Having a community-run distro
9 > is great. However, it's a little utopian and unrealistic when situations
10 > like this arise. You need a group to lay down the law and establish
11 > control. Otherwise, you may find yourself in a situation where good people
12 > with differing points of view just get fed up and leave the fold. That
13 > would be a loss for everyone.
14
15 This is something that most of the new council feels needs to be done.
16 Gentoo has been run as an anarchy for far too long. The "leadership"
17 has been pretty far removed from the day-to-day activities for some
18 time. This isn't necessarily the fault of the people in power so much
19 as the failing of all of us. Every single developer is responsible for
20 the situation we now find ourselves in through our inaction and apathy.
21
22 Let's stop this now and work towards cleaning up our house.
23
24 > Similarly, you cannot allow certain individuals with little or no standing
25 > to try and dictate what policy vis a vis a proposed project should be.
26 > Otherwise, you end up in a real mess.
27
28 Dictate, no. Suggest, absolutely.
29
30 > When new ideas are proposed and developed, gentoo's leadership must be
31 > involved from the beginning. This will head off these 100 thread
32 > flamefests, allow project originators to know where they stand, and allow
33 > those who disagree to know that there is authority.
34
35 I agree, wholeheartedly. I think that some of the principles under
36 which we are currently running are simply flawed. While putting
37 unnecessary restrictions on projects is definitely not a way to
38 innovate, having no controls, whatsoever, leads to complete anarchy.
39
40 There are many contributing factors to these problems. This is nowhere
41 near an exhaustive list, but a simple one from the top of my head.
42
43 - The council is not involved in new projects.
44 - New projects do not undergo a design phase to attempt to add sanity to
45 them prior to their announcement/official status.
46 - Projects do not communicate with each other.
47 - Existing projects are not informed of possible parallels with new
48 projects, resulting in duplication of work, hard feelings, and a lack of
49 good resource utilization.
50 - There are no ramifications against developers who do not follow the
51 decisions made by the council.
52 - The council, even after the recent change to allow meetings outside of
53 the monthly schedule, is limited in its ability to make decisions in q
54 quick and decisive manner.
55
56 > You cannot allow things to get out of hand like they do. Everyone here
57 > obviously wants to make gentoo better. However, NOT everyone has the right
58 > to do so. NOT everyone has veto power or authority to approve.
59
60 Correct. The council is nominated and voted on by the developers to
61 represent them. This should give the council the power to do what is
62 necessary to promote Gentoo and to improve Gentoo.
63
64 > That's what's missing from this process. I think the council has been far
65 > too quiet and policy far too vague which makes new ideas so difficult and
66 > controversial.
67
68 Agreed. However, the new council has only been official for 11 days,
69 now. Some of us are just now getting the feel of what is involved, and
70 we are discussing possible changes that need to take place.
71
72 I propose that we start discussing more on #gentoo-council and come
73 forth with some ideas for improvement by the 29th of September (1 week
74 from now) to be brought up at the next meeting and voted upon.
75
76 > You can't have a socialist model for a business. It simply does not work.
77 > A union cannot run an auto company. You need leadership. Gentoo cannot be
78 > run by 100 developers concurrently (yes, I know there are 300, but how
79 > many of those are actually contributing?). There has to be a chain of
80 > command. Otherwise, you are rudderless.
81
82 This has been the problem with Gentoo since Daniel left, quite honestly.
83 While things were far from perfect back then, the chain of command was
84 much more defined. Currently, there is no chain, at all.
85
86 Again, I thank you for the constructive ideas and hope that this spurs
87 some discussion on how the council can act to improve Gentoo.
88
89 --
90 Chris Gianelloni
91 Release Engineering Strategic Lead
92 Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
93 Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
94 Gentoo Foundation

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Delay in approval of new developers Peter <sw98234@×××××××.com>