1 |
On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 9:33 PM, Ned Ludd<solar@g.o> wrote: |
2 |
> The dev population is quite a strange beast. I never expected to win. |
3 |
> Why would you vote for somebody who did not even publish a manifesto? |
4 |
> I don't know but I love you for it. My only intention was to help offset |
5 |
> dev-zero being able force the will of outside forces upon us. |
6 |
> Well that has been accomplished for now (w00t). But I |
7 |
> never ever expected to be ranked so high. "/me blushes" So that means you |
8 |
> guys/gals expect stuff from me. Well as I never wrote a manifesto but |
9 |
> you still voted for me, I guess I should share some of my ideas on what |
10 |
> I'd like to see happen over the following year. |
11 |
> |
12 |
> The devs have a voice one time of the year: when it comes time to vote. |
13 |
> But what about the rest of the year? What happens when the person you |
14 |
> voted for sucks? You are mostly powerless to do anything other than be |
15 |
> really vocal in what seems like a never ending battle. That needs to |
16 |
> change. I'm not quite sure how. But I'd like to see the dev body have a |
17 |
> year-round voice in the council. Either via quick votes year-round |
18 |
> on topics or simply by having discussion in the channel. Devs should have |
19 |
> a right to voice their concerns to the council and engage in interactive |
20 |
> conversations without being labeled troll. |
21 |
> |
22 |
> Another one of the things I'd like to see and help reform with the |
23 |
> council. First off it spends way too much time on EAPI/PMS. There is no |
24 |
> reason to make the council an extension of the portage team. Portage is |
25 |
> still the official package manager of Gentoo. Granted it's good to |
26 |
> accommodate others to an extent and I've always kept an open mind on other tools. |
27 |
> Alternatives are good as there is always the right tool for the task at hand. But |
28 |
> the council really should not be getting involved most of the time unless there |
29 |
> is a conflict which can't be worked out among the masses and those trying to get |
30 |
> portage to adopt new features. If the dev body wants it otherwise then |
31 |
> I'd like to turn my vote over to you the devs. Each and every time the |
32 |
> council wants/has to vote on an EAPI/PMS feature then I'll happily put my |
33 |
> vote in your hands. You fire up that old votify system and use my vote |
34 |
> as yours. Note however that zmedico is not in favor of his time being |
35 |
> wasted on deciding what PMS/EAPI features are good. He simply likes bugs |
36 |
> and solving those. He likes giving us new features and tends to be more in |
37 |
> favor of the devs and community figuring out what is best for us. |
38 |
> An EAPI review committee could work well also. As long as we could get |
39 |
> non bias people in there. |
40 |
|
41 |
Thank you. This was one thing I had said time and time again over the |
42 |
past year. I long ago advocated for the EAPI/PMS crap to be sorted out |
43 |
by the right people and the council was there to work out any |
44 |
technical issues. We got the pms ML created and before I officially |
45 |
joined the council while I was still proxying for Diego, we did handle |
46 |
one such instance where the PMS people and zmedico had a disagreement. |
47 |
All of a sudden the next round of EAPI/PMS debates became the complete |
48 |
mess they are today. Thank you for having the energy to clean this up |
49 |
again because I know I don't. |
50 |
|
51 |
> |
52 |
> The council should be more about community vs technical issues only. |
53 |
> We have lots of top level projects within Gentoo which have simply given |
54 |
> up on the council as being an outlet to accomplish anything useful. |
55 |
> It should be our job to look at the projects in Gentoo. Look at the ones |
56 |
> that have a healthy community and encourage and promote them in ways. |
57 |
|
58 |
Bingo. That's exactly the point of the council. |
59 |
|
60 |
> |
61 |
> For example prefix comes to mind. It was a project I did not like at |
62 |
> first. I'm not even a user. And there are things I surely don't like |
63 |
> about it as is. But there is community support and it's the icing on the |
64 |
> cake for some. So I'll back the fsck up and give credit where it's due. |
65 |
> This is a perfectly good example of a project/fork that needs to come |
66 |
> back home. Perhaps it's time to cherry pick some more stuff/people out |
67 |
> of Sunrise? |
68 |
> |
69 |
> desultory points out any two council members can decide to approve anything, |
70 |
> and that decision is considered to be equivalent to a full council vote |
71 |
> until the next meeting. I vaguely recall that rule. I'm not sure about you, |
72 |
> but I think that is a little to much power to put in the hands of a few. |
73 |
> Any dev mind if we dump that power? |
74 |
|
75 |
This should have been dumped a while ago. I believe Halcy0n and I had |
76 |
issue with it and got a vote to dump it a while back. |
77 |
|
78 |
> |
79 |
> Meetings will likely go back to one time per month and be +m with +v be |
80 |
> handed out per request with open chat pre/post meetings. The reason for |
81 |
> this is to keep the meetings on-track. I won't engage in endless |
82 |
> discussions. Facts can be presented. They will be reviewed on merit, |
83 |
> technical and social. |
84 |
|
85 |
Thank you again. I tried the +m/+v thing a year ago and received a few |
86 |
pieces of hate e-mail from mostly non-developer people. I'll let them |
87 |
read this on the -dev ML and again let them remind themselves of the |
88 |
fools they make of themselves on the ML. Recently I tried to introduce |
89 |
this again but it quickly drained my energy when dealing with council |
90 |
members in fighting over little rules and tweaks here and there which |
91 |
then resulted in people saying they weren't for it anymore and it |
92 |
never happened for the last 2 meetings. I just didn't have the energy |
93 |
to deal with the bickering between council members over it. I applaud |
94 |
you for having it. |
95 |
|
96 |
> |
97 |
> The reason the meetings should go back to monthly is to allow those who |
98 |
> are council members in Gentoo to accomplish things other than the |
99 |
> council only. We all have personal lives and we all have our respective |
100 |
> roles we play outside of the council. Another note on meetings. The time |
101 |
> they are held currently don't fit well with my work schedule. |
102 |
|
103 |
Another HUGE reason why I didn't run again for the council. It simply |
104 |
took up too much time and took away too much from development. As |
105 |
everyone noticed for 2009, the meeting times worked horrible for my |
106 |
work schedule. They in fact worked really bad for most US Gentoo |
107 |
developer's work schedules and was a huge contributing factor to some |
108 |
of our better council members resigning. Good luck trying to get the |
109 |
meetings to be changed. Last time we discussed it, 3 council members |
110 |
said the meeting times didn't work for them and the other 4 said it |
111 |
was the only time good for them and it just resulted in a back and |
112 |
forth. |
113 |
|
114 |
> |
115 |
> I'm not subscribed directly to the gentoo-dev mailing list anymore |
116 |
> outside of post-only. And I don't plan to re-subscribe. I do browse |
117 |
> the archives regularly however. If there is some topic that should |
118 |
> be brought to my attention please point it out to me directly on irc |
119 |
> or CC: me. |
120 |
> |
121 |
> Thank you all and I will try not to let you down. Unless you were one of |
122 |
> the ones who wanted to me lose. Then sorry, but I'm going to have fun |
123 |
> disappointing you, by doing what is best for Gentoo. |
124 |
> |
125 |
> If you have any ideas on how you think the council should function or |
126 |
> reform itself. Please start a new thread or email those who think will |
127 |
> listen to those ideas. I'm open for some real change as long as it's |
128 |
> for the the positive. |
129 |
|
130 |
Oh how we could talk for hours.... assuming you've got the energy were |
131 |
mine was burnt out on all the pointless in fighting. |
132 |
|
133 |
> |
134 |
> So lets have some damn fun again !@#$ |
135 |
> Thanks. |
136 |
|
137 |
This is why you got my vote... cause I knew while you and I haven't |
138 |
gotten along in the past. You feel the same way about Gentoo as I do. |
139 |
|
140 |
-- |
141 |
Doug Goldstein |