Gentoo Archives: gentoo-dev

From: Doug Goldstein <cardoe@g.o>
To: Ned Ludd <solar@g.o>
Cc: gentoo-dev@l.g.o, gentoo-council <gentoo-council@l.g.o>
Subject: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-council] A Little Council Reform Anyone?
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 04:39:30
Message-Id: eafa4c130907012139g43e50dccg43d4d681d7f92bae@mail.gmail.com
In Reply to: [gentoo-dev] A Little Council Reform Anyone? by Ned Ludd
1 On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 9:33 PM, Ned Ludd<solar@g.o> wrote:
2 > The dev population is quite a strange beast. I never expected to win.
3 > Why would you vote for somebody who did not even publish a manifesto?
4 > I don't know but I love you for it. My only intention was to help offset
5 > dev-zero being able force the will of outside forces upon us.
6 > Well that has been accomplished for now (w00t). But I
7 > never ever expected to be ranked so high. "/me blushes" So that means you
8 > guys/gals expect stuff from me. Well as I never wrote a manifesto but
9 > you still voted for me, I guess I should share some of my ideas on what
10 > I'd like to see happen over the following year.
11 >
12 > The devs have a voice one time of the year: when it comes time to vote.
13 > But what about the rest of the year? What happens when the person you
14 > voted for sucks? You are mostly powerless to do anything other than be
15 > really vocal in what seems like a never ending battle. That needs to
16 > change. I'm not quite sure how. But I'd like to see the dev body have a
17 > year-round voice in the council. Either via quick votes year-round
18 > on topics or simply by having discussion in the channel. Devs should have
19 > a right to voice their concerns to the council and engage in interactive
20 > conversations without being labeled troll.
21 >
22 > Another one of the things I'd like to see and help reform with the
23 > council. First off it spends way too much time on EAPI/PMS. There is no
24 > reason to make the council an extension of the portage team. Portage is
25 > still the official package manager of Gentoo. Granted it's good to
26 > accommodate others to an extent and I've always kept an open mind on other tools.
27 > Alternatives are good as there is always the right tool for the task at hand. But
28 > the council really should not be getting involved most of the time unless there
29 > is a conflict which can't be worked out among the masses and those trying to get
30 > portage to adopt new features. If the dev body wants it otherwise then
31 > I'd like to turn my vote over to you the devs. Each and every time the
32 > council wants/has to vote on an EAPI/PMS feature then I'll happily put my
33 > vote in your hands. You fire up that old votify system and use my vote
34 > as yours. Note however that zmedico is not in favor of his time being
35 > wasted on deciding what PMS/EAPI features are good. He simply likes bugs
36 > and solving those. He likes giving us new features and tends to be more in
37 > favor of the devs and community figuring out what is best for us.
38 > An EAPI review committee could work well also. As long as we could get
39 > non bias people in there.
40
41 Thank you. This was one thing I had said time and time again over the
42 past year. I long ago advocated for the EAPI/PMS crap to be sorted out
43 by the right people and the council was there to work out any
44 technical issues. We got the pms ML created and before I officially
45 joined the council while I was still proxying for Diego, we did handle
46 one such instance where the PMS people and zmedico had a disagreement.
47 All of a sudden the next round of EAPI/PMS debates became the complete
48 mess they are today. Thank you for having the energy to clean this up
49 again because I know I don't.
50
51 >
52 > The council should be more about community vs technical issues only.
53 > We have lots of top level projects within Gentoo which have simply given
54 > up on the council as being an outlet to accomplish anything useful.
55 > It should be our job to look at the projects in Gentoo. Look at the ones
56 > that have a healthy community and encourage and promote them in ways.
57
58 Bingo. That's exactly the point of the council.
59
60 >
61 > For example prefix comes to mind. It was a project I did not like at
62 > first. I'm not even a user. And there are things I surely don't like
63 > about it as is. But there is community support and it's the icing on the
64 > cake for some. So I'll back the fsck up and give credit where it's due.
65 > This is a perfectly good example of a project/fork that needs to come
66 > back home. Perhaps it's time to cherry pick some more stuff/people out
67 > of Sunrise?
68 >
69 > desultory points out any two council members can decide to approve anything,
70 > and that decision is considered to be equivalent to a full council vote
71 > until the next meeting. I vaguely recall that rule. I'm not sure about you,
72 > but I think that is a little to much power to put in the hands of a few.
73 > Any dev mind if we dump that power?
74
75 This should have been dumped a while ago. I believe Halcy0n and I had
76 issue with it and got a vote to dump it a while back.
77
78 >
79 > Meetings will likely go back to one time per month and be +m with +v be
80 > handed out per request with open chat pre/post meetings.  The reason for
81 > this is to keep the meetings on-track. I won't engage in endless
82 > discussions. Facts can be presented. They will be reviewed on merit,
83 > technical and social.
84
85 Thank you again. I tried the +m/+v thing a year ago and received a few
86 pieces of hate e-mail from mostly non-developer people. I'll let them
87 read this on the -dev ML and again let them remind themselves of the
88 fools they make of themselves on the ML. Recently I tried to introduce
89 this again but it quickly drained my energy when dealing with council
90 members in fighting over little rules and tweaks here and there which
91 then resulted in people saying they weren't for it anymore and it
92 never happened for the last 2 meetings. I just didn't have the energy
93 to deal with the bickering between council members over it. I applaud
94 you for having it.
95
96 >
97 > The reason the meetings should go back to monthly is to allow those who
98 > are council members in Gentoo to accomplish things other than the
99 > council only. We all have personal lives and we all have our respective
100 > roles we play outside of the council. Another note on meetings. The time
101 > they are held currently don't fit well with my work schedule.
102
103 Another HUGE reason why I didn't run again for the council. It simply
104 took up too much time and took away too much from development. As
105 everyone noticed for 2009, the meeting times worked horrible for my
106 work schedule. They in fact worked really bad for most US Gentoo
107 developer's work schedules and was a huge contributing factor to some
108 of our better council members resigning. Good luck trying to get the
109 meetings to be changed. Last time we discussed it, 3 council members
110 said the meeting times didn't work for them and the other 4 said it
111 was the only time good for them and it just resulted in a back and
112 forth.
113
114 >
115 > I'm not subscribed directly to the gentoo-dev mailing list anymore
116 > outside of post-only. And I don't plan to re-subscribe. I do browse
117 > the archives regularly however. If there is some topic that should
118 > be brought to my attention please point it out to me directly on irc
119 > or CC: me.
120 >
121 > Thank you all and I will try not to let you down. Unless you were one of
122 > the ones who wanted to me lose. Then sorry, but I'm going to have fun
123 > disappointing you, by doing what is best for Gentoo.
124 >
125 > If you have any ideas on how you think the council should function or
126 > reform itself. Please start a new thread or email those who think will
127 > listen to those ideas. I'm open for some real change as long as it's
128 > for the the positive.
129
130 Oh how we could talk for hours.... assuming you've got the energy were
131 mine was burnt out on all the pointless in fighting.
132
133 >
134 > So lets have some damn fun again !@#$
135 > Thanks.
136
137 This is why you got my vote... cause I knew while you and I haven't
138 gotten along in the past. You feel the same way about Gentoo as I do.
139
140 --
141 Doug Goldstein

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