Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Alec Warner]

Kari Hazzard wrote:
> On Thursday 05 October 2006 10:48 am, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
>> What about *our* choice to not waste time building things we don't want?
>
> So what about those of us who DO want that? Forcing us into an installer is
> more constricting and gives us less freedom--That's not the Gentoo way.
>
> "If the tool forces the user to do things a particular way, then the tool is
> working against, rather than for, the user. We have all experienced
> situations where tools seem to be imposing their respective wills on us. This
> is backwards, and contrary to the Gentoo philosophy." - Daniel Robbins
>

While I like that quote; I think we are a long way from the times when 
it applied to what Gentoo was.

Gentoo is at it's core a metadistribution; it is *those* tools to which 
I believe Daniel is speaking of in that statement.  Obviously I can't 
make a liveCD that will satisfy everyone; there is no point in trying to 
do so.  However I can give you a tree and catalyst and all the parts you 
need to build your own.  That is what we call "enabling" and is really 
what I think his whole point was.

>> See, what *you* seem to be missing is that we're trying to provide a
>> better environment for our users.  The LiveCD is *not* just an
>> installation medium anymore.  It is a full-fledged Gentoo environment.
>> It can be used for showcasing Gentoo, as well as system recovery *and*
>> installation.
>
> There's a thing called self-reference criteria. It's anathema in marketing. If
> you think you know what is best for your users, you will all of your users
> and thus most of your employees. Your users know what is best for them, *not*
> you, as you are not a user (whether you have it installed on your desktop
> notwithstanding you are *not* a user). If your users still want a Universal
> LiveCD, then the onus is on Gentoo to provide one.

I concur with Donnie here; Gentoo exists not because of Users, but 
because of (a subset of active) Developers.  It isn't a statement that 
is meant to trash users (because you are quite helpful in many 
instances).  But the naive thought that Gentoo revolves around users 
is....well, naive.  Gentoo was here before there were thousands of 
users, in the unlikely event that you all switch distros, Gentoo will 
probably still be here.

We try to incorporate feedback from users because we are trying to make 
our work coincide with that feedback.  Sometimes this is possible; many 
times it is not possible.  Generally more Users = larger pool of Devs, 
and more Devs = more cool stuff going on here.

To make another argument; if I go buy a RHEL3 box set and then complain 
because the liveCD doesn't have some key programs (lets say 
cryptsetup-luks statically compiled so I can boot off of a USB key and 
encrypt my / partition), is the onus on them to release a new CD just 
for me?  Hell I'm a paying customer!  But they don't care.  And you 
aren't even required to pay for Gentoo at all!  So why do you expect more?

-Alec
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