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On 01/17/2017 01:05 AM, Daniel Campbell wrote: |
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> On 01/13/2017 08:06 AM, james wrote: |
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>> On 01/13/2017 02:45 AM, Sven Eden wrote: |
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>> |
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>>> Btw.: Even "embedded experts" wholeheartedly agree that they disagree |
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>>> what |
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>>> "embedded" actually is. But I do think SoCs actually *do* qualify, at |
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>>> least to |
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>>> some degree... |
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>> |
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>> |
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>> Huh? |
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>> |
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>> Probably who you deem as an expert; they have not clearly defined |
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>> systems types and semantics of an embedded systems. An embedded system |
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>> is one that is 'closed' to pedestrian/consumer/user modifications, |
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>> excepting rooting and other non-normal bypass mechanisms. A modification |
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>> is not the same thing as a configuration. An embedded system is designed |
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>> with limited functionality or "canned product functionality" for |
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>> consumers of very specific task-sets. Early Micros where often more |
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>> accurately referred to as 'microcontrollers' as their function was |
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>> simply to replace mechanical control systems that were prone to wear and |
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>> failure. When programming occurs (again rooting and hacking do not |
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>> count), it is only allowed by the system designer(s). So a Rasp. Pi on |
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>> the internet, open to dozens or thousands of coders, is not an embedded |
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>> system. At some point it may become an embedded system, but it must be |
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>> locked down, limited in functionality and purged of all that software |
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>> used for development but not needed to run and function as the |
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>> designer(s) intend. Updates are usually in a binary form, again under |
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>> the strict control as designed by the product (embedded systems) developer. |
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>> |
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>> |
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>> Given that, the reason why so many folks are confused as to what an |
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>> embedded system actually is, is that there are lots of "open" platforms |
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>> where users are encouraged to be the designer, thus having architecture, |
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>> coding, and modification access that an ordinary user would not have; |
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>> again, security hacks that grant non-normal access |
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>> do not count. That is if you 'hack' into the product or the bios of a |
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>> computer, you have not converted the device's intended usage into a |
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>> embedded system, although you may have low level access to the hardware, |
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>> firmware and other subsystems that the designers did not intentionally |
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>> make available to you. When a computer is 'locked down and limited' like |
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>> a kiosk, it actually is an embedded system. |
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>> |
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>> |
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>> Traditionally, the easy way to set up product developers was through |
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>> vendors (OEM like Freescale, Samsung, Broadcom, etc) via a 'dev board'. |
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>> Example codes, minimal stack of an rtos or vendor supplied software |
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>> system, along with documentation and details of the in-situ hardware |
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>> that comprise the 'dev board'. Small systems did not have (nor do they |
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>> now) have an 'OS' instead they were simple state-machines or run a |
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>> polling algorithm. Most embedded systems still operate on these sorts of |
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>> codes, even today. |
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>> |
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>> |
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>> Fast forward, Rasp. Pi et. al are dev boards that can be turned into |
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>> open, multi user systems, say if you make it a typical minimized linux |
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>> system. Some even have inputs for keyboard, mouse and terminal; so that |
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>> sort of system, would not be an embedded system. Now take the same |
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>> board, lock it down so all it does is control the sprinklers in your |
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>> yard, with limited functional interfaces to the 'standard user' and it |
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>> is indeed an 'embedded system'. Most products with a small |
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>> microprocessor are 'embedded systems'. Most Rasp. Pi boards are user |
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>> systems because they are open and unlimited an any given time and are |
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>> not 'locked down'. |
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>> |
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>> |
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>> It takes a designer, or a team of designers to create an 'embedded |
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>> system', particularly if the embedded system is to be turned into a |
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>> commercial product. The net effect of boards like Rasp. Pi is open up |
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>> the opportunity for folks to learn 'product development'. Most have |
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>> chosen to create user systems with some functionality not found in |
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>> traditional desktop systems. Surely there are edge cases that blur |
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>> the lines of distinction; but most are not a finalized product (embedded |
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>> system) as they are in a constant state of flux related to the interned |
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>> software, thus they are not an 'embedded system'. A properly designed |
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>> embedded system can last in its minimized and limited form for decades |
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>> or more and operated as intended (think digital alarm clock). Others do |
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>> need an update to the firmware (locked down internal software), but that |
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>> is only performed by the product owners or vendors, in the normal case |
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>> of operation. Indeterminant hardware is just hardware; it has to be |
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>> robustly defined, tested and implemented to be a user system, an |
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>> embedded system, or whatever the designer has in mind. |
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>> |
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>> |
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>> So hopefully, I have articulated the fact that an 'embedded system' is |
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>> determined by the designer, not the underlying hardware from a vendor. |
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>> Robust embedded system design, regardless of VHDL or C or ? codes |
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>> are more of an art-form than a technical expose on software development. |
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>> I know embedded designers that have created thousands of products some |
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>> in a matter of weeks, and other teams that fail to produce a single |
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>> robust product, in their entire lifetime. The most prolific designer of |
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>> them all, is simple referred to as 'doctor bitch' by her subordinates |
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>> and friends. Some, more respectfully refer to her as the queen of |
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>> assembler, as she has fixed thousands of compiler bugs from a myriad of |
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>> compiler vendors, not for compensation, but because the bugs got in her |
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>> way....... |
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>> |
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>> |
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>> |
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>> hth, |
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>> James |
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>> |
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> Whoa, quite a post there! It was a good read. Is this coworker looking |
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> for any volunteer distro work by any chance? *wink wink* :P |
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Never. She does not believe in open source donations; strictly |
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mercenary. She eats her own young and spits out the bones..... If you |
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have ideas or a business proposal, drop it to me privately..... |
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in case you have mused "coworker" with "she". If you have embedded |
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needs, including help and advise, drop me some private email. |
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I also have a member of my stable that is world class on Rf (anything |
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and everything); but is only available for projects (thru me) that are |
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in the upmost realm with the most pristine of intentions, as "we" are |
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encumbered by stringent standards of purpose..... That is, folks with |
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money, guns and lawyers can only drool over this (world class) expert. |
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Unlike 'the bitch" he is the kindest person you'd ever meet and can |
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teach and show anything in mathematics (EE stuffage) or how to build |
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things. He disassembled old electronics and started building audio amps |
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at the age of 6, all on his own, no books no help, but lots of |
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fireworks. He still enjoys "smoking" fancy electronics in a variety of |
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creative ways whilst capturing and manipulating the wave_forms, just |
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like a child in a lab. Savant does not even come close to describing |
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this unique individual. He is the "number one EE" wherever he goes, |
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putting even "Spock" to shame on knowledge. |
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My minimal cluster works are becoming "unikernels" and as such there is |
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quite a lot in common with embedded systems that coalesce into |
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morph-able clusters, damn near real-time. They use ethernet or board |
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based data busses in a variety of ways. IoT devices are so hacked right |
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now, there is a huge need for (gentoo) hardened on embedded 64 bit |
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systems, in case you have some useful links. If the devs pull this off, |
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hardened-embedded gentoo, and and disseminate that knowledge succinctly, |
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then gentoo-embedded will explode inside of secure product development labs. |
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All of this is very, very expensive expertise, only available to those |
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with the deepest pockets and connections focused on honorable |
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intentions. My work, will be shared, as soon as I master the bare-metal |
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to booted part of the cluster work. It's like automated installs, |
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something that gentoo-leadership strives to prevent, over the years. |
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hth, |
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James |