Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Packages up for grabs

[james]

On 08/07/2016 08:32 AM, Kent Fredric wrote:
> On Sun, 7 Aug 2016 08:24:51 -0500
> james <garftd@×××××××.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> As a team, we could have a simple default program for a simple default
>> disk format, and a variety of 'stage-4' images, maybe updated every 3
>> months, to get a gentoo system up, quickly. Not an anything you want
>> it to be, but a few, common choices. Perhaps a security apparatus,
>> commonly needed, built on the hardened project? (like a bridge or a
>> firewall)?
>
> I for one miss the days where Stage-1 was the defacto install, and
> Stage-3 was "For lazy people who just wanted to use something".
>
> When we transitioned to making Stage 3 the default, it was like, heresy.
>
> Stage 4? :)
>
> I highly encourage people to randomly hurt themselves by attempting an
> unsupported Stage 1 install, just to find what breaks.
>
>> Let them use java* codes, as that is what all the universities are
>> teaching and promoting. I agree
>> with gentoo proper on severely restricting java*,  on gentoo-proper,
>> but that sort of thing is killing gentoo and just appears to the open
>> world as a filter mechanism to keep out and go elsewhere, snoot.
>> There are just too many exciting and useful codes out there running
>> java.
>
> "All" ? Some. And the dominance and focus on Java is itself telling of
> the quality and type of the education provider.
>
> Some education providers may not touch Java at all, and focus
> predominantly on C.

Sure, I agree here, but, statistically these "hi level" languages are 
being taught, in lieu of C; and that is really sad. I'm sure there are 
exceptions, would you have a few CS departments that push C over java
and the other, newer languages? (I'm curios).


>
> You can't satisfy everyone out of the box.
>
>
> The rest of your response kinda rotates around a central axiom that
> makes other Linux distributions effective, and "Easy":
>
> The lack of choice, a tailored work flow, a target audience, and a
> narrow focus on what the vendor delivers.
>
> Gentoo is fundamentally unlike these things, because the Gentoo way has
> always been first and foremost about *user choice* and *maximising user
> choice*

Noting in promoting an easy install semantic for a default, buildable 
system, precludes choice after the system is installed and boot. For 
examle a default install, using Calamares and ending up with KDE, could 
easily then have kde removed and lxqt installed. That would be up to the 
new user to figure out, via the handbook and the wiki....


> The reality is a giant hunk of the world are *not interested in choice*
> They want something that works and get out of their way.

Quite true, but we're talking about increasing gentoo's update amongst 
those linux leaners, not converting windows/mac users that are not 
interested in alternatives....

>
> That's why proprietary systems with deep, vertical architecture and
> product lock-in are still incredibly popular.
> They understand their market, and they focus on making things work for
> that market by tailoring it to a very narrow set of features that
> satisfies 95% of its target.

Support is always a crowd pleaser, imho. So with fresh ideas, the newest 
members support those right behind them in line with user level issues. 
Noobs helping noobs. buntu has proven this works, if nothing else.

>
> Gentoo's target audience is decidedly that other 5%, the group of
> people who don't mind getting their hands dirty, the group who wade up
> to their elbows dealing with horrible problems because that's the
> consequence of the power of choice.

What I proposed, models for easier install and a VM/Container system 
that is secure and allow for experimentation with "jentoo" does not 
limit, but, encourage choice and experimentation.

Let's focus on the easy install. Once folks get a running gentoo system, 
most figure out how to manage it and like the choices, build from 
sources (and bin packages for the larger/complex).

>
> You can promote pre-boxed Gentoo products if you want, I just think
> you're barking up the wrong tree if you think doing that will help
> anybody.

You are misconstruing the message. It's a boxed, quick install that 
would behave going forward, with the same (exact) semantics as a 
grudge-filled traditional install. The only difference is that first 
install is
quick, fast and easy. Nothing else changes, unless this fresh install 
chooses to embrace additional packaging or alternative packages compare 
to the default install. Nobody needs to make that decision. Surely many 
will then go read the handbook and the wiki to move forward.
The install just becomes painless for a few basic or default examples.
We do currently provide an occasional 'liveDVD'. So just image one of 
those, with an  easy install pathway.

>
> As with most open source, it requires volunteer effort to make this
> happen, and its a hard sell to try to convince existing staff to spend
> more time on producing a thing that exists only to *reduce* user choice
> for the sake of convenience.

Again, you are incorrectly suggesting that these easy installs will 
preclude traditional gentoo semantics for adding, modifying, patching,
or any other form of currently available modifications or enhancement 
from occurring. I'm not certain if you are twisting the focus here 
intentionally, or you are just limited in your imagination? Nobody wants 
that (artificial) limitation, so why would it me the semantic going 
forward, after an easy install?

Think of it like sex. All of the traditional would be wonderfully 
available, but we're just adding a quickie (install) as an extra option.
No limitations, just *choice* on the install.



> And I just think most of our devs have more interesting problems to
> solve than that, and you'd be simply weakening the core Gentoo
> development team by trying to steal existing Gentoo staff to engineer
> this carefully designed and polished "Just Works For Noobs" platform.

Agreed. My idea is some encouragement and maybe receive a little bit of 
positive advise. The noobs will help the noobs, and a few will migrate 
down the maintainer--> dev pathway.

On this list and elsewhere gentoo devs have admitted to using quickie 
installs, and liked it. It's just frowned upon to document it and 
encourage it. Like a wiki page on how to convert a calculate or sabayon 
install to a traditional gentoo system.
>
> And even then, I think if you did OK, it would be striving for the
> wrong thing.

An easy install, does not have to be detrimental. Over the years I have 
taught quite a few 'youngsters' how to drive on rural flat land in a big 
4x4 with an automatic transmission and a booster seat. You just put the 
transfer case into low, and they cannot go very fast and the love the 
*power*, spinning tires and slinging mud and riding around. Later on in 
life they all have matured into productive adults.

Face it, gentoo is a power trip, we all know that. Letting folks feel 
that, in a easy, but real, quick install default version, that 
eventually hooks them into gentoo.


>
> If you're going to come to a competition that has existing major
> players ( such as the "noob friendly" linux desktop market ), you have
> to not be simply a "me too!" in order to hope for success.

The power of Gentoo-traditional awaits them, soon after reading and 
learning from the handbook and the wiki. Not all will use this, but,
it sure would put a more attractive face on taking gentoo for a test drive.

>
> You have to have something unique that blows all the competition out of
> the water in at least one way, that capitalises on an un-tapped need.
>
> Anything else will just be some pathetic copy-cat attempt.
>
> And for Gentoo, our "Unique Edge" *is* our configurability, our
> incredibly effective and convenient flexibility.

Again, nothing in this idea inhibits the full power of gentoo from being 
available; nothing. The begging of (their) journey is easier and
more appealing. Many will stay in the valley of the noobs, but other 
will turn to the handbook and the wiki; just as grasshopper became 
shaolin, imho. Monk my words.....


>
> Sacrificing our primary benefit to chase after some other market
> half-assedly ... I can't see that panning out well myself.

You keep with this false choice, that is non-sequitur. The only limiting 
here is your mind.


>
> Personally, I think we need to double down on what we're good at,
> flexibility, and configurability.

No arguments there. Putting an experimental for of gentoo, complete with 
questionable java, into a secure Gentoo hosted VM or Container,
is not flexibility and configurability?


>
> Find ways of building systems at the users behest that do exactly what
> they want easily, and not assume we know what is best for our users.

You should go to any of the progressive job boards (stackoverflow etc). 
Java is everywhere. It should not be mandated but a choice. Sincere the 
are numerous issues java, secure it via a VM or a container, if that can 
be done?



>
> Anything else and Gentoo will go in the direction of the sad sorry
> state of the Linux Desktop, where neither GTK/Gnome or QT/KDE are very
> useable anymore, and they've become encumbered with horribly lethargic
> and bloated design, because they were all trying too hard to chase what
> they thought people wanted, the standard established by Windows and OSX
> for "Easy".
>
Agreed and that is not what I'm proposing, either. I'm proposing an easy 
install for a few types of basic systems (that choice is open to 
discussion). And, if possible, a way to put either a secure VM or a 
secure container on a hardened gentoo system to put an 
insecure/experimental form of jentoo into.

No one but you is talking about any limitations.


hth,
James


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