[gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes

[Ryan Reich]

Mike Doty wrote:
>All-
>
>We're going to change the -dev mailing list from completely open to where only
>devs can post, but any dev could moderate a non-dev post.  devs who moderate in
>bad posts will be subject to moderation themselves.  in addition the
>gentoo-project list will be created to take over what -dev frequently becomes.
> there is no requirement to be on this new list.
>
>This will probably remove the need for -core(everything gets leaked out anyway)
>but that's a path to cross later.
>
>We're voting on this next council meeting so if you have input, now would be
>the time.
>
>--taco

As a user rather than a dev I waited to respond to this until I saw
some of the discussion, since I'm new to Gentoo culture.  Most opinion
seems to have been extremely negative, along the lines of "This will
kill Gentoo because it will alienate the users", together with some
very defensive responses from supporters, and a few who don't seem to
care at all.  I was also originally quite negative about it, but
rereading the statement I have come to see some merits in the general
idea.  Developers (who are required to read the list and for whose
continued collaboration and productivity it exists) should have the
ability to banish non-developers who abuse their subscriptions to make
technical discussions personal.  This is only reasonable.  However,
moderating this list will just place an obstacle in the path of casual
user participation and foster a sense of entitlement among the more
resentful developers (those would be the ones making claims that
Gentoo is not about what devs can do for the users, but merely about
everyone serving their own interests).

So a better solution would be to adopt the proposal for a
developer-moderated blacklist.  However, if such powers are expected
to be exercised routinely, simply issuing it carte blanche would be
ignoring a much larger issue having to do with the quality of the
developer community (not to be confused with the larger developer-user
community) itself.  A good example of a list which follows this sort
of policy, and which I also read (skim), is the linux-kernel mailing
list, which I consider to be perhaps the optimal open-source
developer's list.  It has high volume, which people here (and there)
sometimes dislike, but that's because they track contributions on the
list rather than through Bugzilla, so ignore that aspect.  The point
is that each and every conversation is on-topic, competent, technical,
and very patiently conducted.  Even when one developer makes strong
(sometimes very strong) remarks it is, as far as I have observed,
never met in kind.  They bury their egos for the sake of the project,
because they are all good at what they do, respected for it, and get
enough gratification from their work that they don't need to seek
cheap thrills through mailing-list flamewars (indeed, that would
detract from their job satisfaction).  Stupid, inflammatory, and
provocative letters are rarely answered and never develop into
flamewars, because no one dignifies them with responses.  On very rare
occasions I have seen a frivolous conversation (one about some penguin
game comes to mind), which reached a surprising saturation before one
of the lead developers threatened excommunication to the participants.
 This is the ONLY time I have ever seen the blacklist powers
explicitly exercised, and it completely ended the idiocy.  Power
exercised with extreme caution will hit twice as hard when it finally
comes, because they'll know you mean it.

I mention this because it is a pretty high standard, but is in my
opinion just about the least you can really expect of a mailing list
for a volunteer software development project.  If this list
degenerates into regular flamewars, it is not the fault of the users;
there will always be idiots, but hopefully these people are too
self-centered to think of contributing to something like Gentoo.
Flamewars are the fault of the developers who participate in them,
though no one will like to hear me say this.  It's a developer's list
and the flamewars wouldn't go anywhere if only a small cabal of lusers
stoked them.  And from what I've said above, having observed it in the
LKML, if developers are doing this it's because they don't respect
their work enough, in which case, why do they continue developing?
But I've noticed three at least quitting since this discussion
started, so maybe they don't.  So before you go and moderate the list
in any form, think about why at least a few of your number are so
immature.  Maybe I'm wrong, and they do like their work, but at the
very least you should start by making a serious attempt to reform the
mailing list culture by pure social pressure before actually
implementing a moderation scheme.  After all, it's true that users are
granted access to this list as a privilege: the privilege of putting
in their two cents and thereby contributing to a project that takes
itself as seriously as the users apparently take it.  The only reason
it's desirable to the developers is that it helps them do their job.
So impeding the users should (and will) be the last thing this list
ever does.

-- 
Ryan Reich
ryan.reich@×××××.com
-- 
gentoo-dev@g.o mailing list