Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Splitting developer-oriented and expert user mailing lists

[Damo Brisbane]

"suspicious of" to strong a word - "wary of" !

On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 7:16 AM, Damo Brisbane <dhatchett2@×××××.com> wrote:

> As a relative newbie I wonder about the format generally of the lists,
> however "unbroken", I would be concerned about a dated look. Also, IMO
> anything requiring "manual restructuring" - verses automation - I am a
> little suspicious of. If dumb stuff is coming through, why cant the good
> stuff be automatically curated and presented on top of existing lists? ie
> run a PoC, curated content targeting mobile users. From there drivers may
> emerge for incorporating updates or come back to suggestions herein.
>
> On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 9:18 AM, Michał Górny <mgorny@g.o> wrote:
>
>> Hello, everyone.
>>
>> This is something that's been talked about privately a lot lately but it
>> seems that nobody went forward to put things into motion. SO here's
>> a proposal that aims to improve the condition of our mailing lists
>> and solve some of the problems they are facing today.
>>
>>
>> Problems
>> ========
>>
>> Currently the developer-oriented mailing lists gentoo-dev and gentoo-
>> project are open to posting by everyone. While this has been generally
>> beneficial, we seem to be having major problems with some
>> of the posters for more than a year. Off hand, I can think of three:
>>
>> 1. Repeating attacks against Gentoo and/or Gentoo developers (including
>> pure personal attacks). While it is understandable that some people may
>> be frustrated and need to vent off, repeating attacks from the same
>> person are seriously demotivating to everyone.
>>
>> 2. Frequent off-topics, often irrelevant to the thread at hand.
>> I understand that some of those topics are really interesting but it is
>> really time-consuming to filter through all the off-topic mails
>> in search of data relevant to the topic at hand. What's worst, sometimes
>> you don't even get a single on-topic reply.
>>
>> 3. Support requests. Some of our 'expert users' have been abusing
>> the mailing lists to request support (because it's easier to ask
>> everyone than go through proper channels) and/or complain about bug
>> resolutions. This is a minor issue but still it is one.
>>
>>
>> All of those issues are slowly rendering the mailing lists impossible to
>> use. People waste a lot of time trying to gather feedback, and get
>> demotivated in the process. A steadily growing number of developers
>> either stop reading the mailing lists altogether, or reduce their
>> activity.
>>
>> For example, eclass reviews usually don't get more than one reply,
>> and even that is not always on-topic. And after all, getting this kind
>> of feedback is one of the purposes of the -dev mailing list!
>>
>>
>> Proposal
>> ========
>>
>> Give the failure of other solutions tried for this, I'd like to
>> establish the following changes to the mailing lists:
>>
>> 1. Posting to gentoo-dev@ and gentoo-project@ mailing lists will be
>> initially restricted to active Gentoo developers.
>>
>> 1a. Subscription (reading) and archives will still be open.
>>
>> 1b. Active Gentoo contributors will be able to obtain posting access
>> upon being vouched for by an active Gentoo developer.
>>
>> 2. A new mailing list 'gentoo-expert' will be formed to provide
>> a discussion medium for expert Gentoo users and developers.
>>
>> 2a. gentoo-expert will have open posting access like gentoo-dev has now.
>>
>>
>> Rationale
>> =========
>>
>> I expect that some of you will find this a drastic measure. However, I
>> would like to point out that I believe we've already exhausted all other
>> options to no avail.
>>
>> The problems of more abusive behavior from some of the mailing list
>> members have been reported to ComRel numerous times. After the failure
>> of initial enforcement, I'm not aware of ComRel doing anything to solve
>> the problem. The main arguments I've heard from ComRel members were:
>>
>> A. Bans can be trivially evaded, and history proves that those evasions
>> create more noise than leaving the issue as is.
>>
>> B. People should be allowed to express their opinion [even if it's pure
>> hate speech that carries no value to anyone].
>>
>> C. The replies of Gentoo developers were worse [no surprise that people
>> lose their patience after being attacked for a few months].
>>
>>
>> The alternative suggested by ComRel pretty much boiled down to 'ignore
>> the trolls'. While we can see this is actually starting to happen right
>> now (even the most determined developers stopped replying), this doesn't
>> really solve the problem because:
>>
>> I. Some people are really determined and continue sending mails even if
>> nobody replies to them. In fact, they are perfectly capable of replying
>> to themselves.
>>
>> II. This practically assumes that every new mailing list subscriber will
>> be able to recognize the problem. Otherwise, new people will repeatedly
>> be lured into discussing with them.
>>
>> III. In the end, it puts Gentoo in a bad position. Firstly, because it
>> silently consents to misbehavior on the mailing lists. Secondly, because
>> the lack of any statement in reply to accusations could be seen
>> as a sign of shameful silent admittance.
>>
>>
>> Yet another alternative that was proposed was to establish moderation of
>> the mailing lists. However, Infrastructure has replied already that we
>> can't deploy effective moderation with the current mailing list software
>> and I'm not aware of anyone willing to undergo all the necessary work to
>> change that.
>>
>> Even if we were able to overcome that and be able to find a good
>> moderation team that can effectively and fairly moderate e-mails without
>> causing huge delays, moderation has a number of own problems:
>>
>> α) the delays will make discussions more cumbersome, and render posting
>> confusing to users,
>>
>> β) they will implicitly cause some overlap of replies (e.g. when N
>> different people answer the same question because they don't see earlier
>> replies until they're past moderation),
>>
>> γ) the problem will be solved only partially -- what if a reply contains
>> both valuable info and personal attack?
>>
>>
>> Seeing that no other effort so far has succeeded in solving the problem,
>> splitting the mailing lists seems the best solution so far. Most
>> notably:
>>
>> а. Developer mailing lists are restored to their original purpose.
>>
>> б. It is 'fair'. Unlike with disciplinary actions, there is no judgment
>> problem, just a clear split between 'developers' and 'non-developers'.
>>
>> в. 'Expert users' are still provided with a mailing list where they can
>> discuss Gentoo without being pushed down into 'user support' channels.
>>
>> г. Active contributors (in particular recruits) can still obtain posting
>> access to the mailing lists, much like they do obtain it to #gentoo-dev
>> right now. However, if they start misbehaving we can just remove that
>> without the risk of evasion.
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>> Michał Górny
>>
>>
>>
>