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Luke-Jr wrote: |
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> No, but tools should be obvious to the user when they can be without losing |
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> any functionality. Nano, for example, makes itself quite obvious how to use |
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> and is not, AFAIK, explained anywhere in the manual. cfdisk is obvious in the |
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> same way. As far as the manual goes, neither nano nor cfdisk lack any needed |
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> functionality. |
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|
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I'm not saying Nano shouldn't be included by any means. As for cfdisk, |
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it's less standard (read: common) than fdisk, and questions have been |
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raised about its functionality. |
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|
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I've repaird literally thousands of partition tables with fdisk (the |
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same one, if only prior versions going back several years that ships on |
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the Gentoo install CD) and never encountered a problem. Why not stick |
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with something that takes minutes to learn, is standard, and proven |
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reliable? |
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|
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>>fdisk is a simple, standard, powerful partition table editor. I've used |
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>>Linux's fdisk to repair botched tables more times than I can count. |
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>>Instructions for use can be very simple. |
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> |
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> Instructions for fdisk can be simple, as opposed to not really needing |
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> instructions for cfdisk at all... I'm not saying exclude fdisk (it can't be |
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> that big), but there's no reason to use it by default (eg in the manual). |
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|
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Including alternate tools for every part of the installation, especially |
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when including tools that are not industry / POSIX standard tools, is |
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contributing to bloat. |
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|
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Here's an idea; what about having a standard set of tools on the minimal |
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install CD, and only including duplicate functionality / "user friendly" |
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tools, scripts, menus, and installation GUIs on the larger CD that comes |
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with Stage3? Why are newbie users installing from Stage1 if they can't |
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even use vi or fdisk anyways? |
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|
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Perhaps one of those lines could include the notion of "Advanced |
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installation from the ground up" or "hand-holding from Stage3 with the |
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option of using Stage1 if you're so inclined". |
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|
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>>The last patch of the slope is the Vi(M) discussion. "Vi is hard" seems |
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>>like a bit of a cop-out to me. Vi can be summed-up in half a dozen lines; |
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>> |
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1 - >>vi <filename> - Load file for editing |
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2 - >>/<keyword> - search |
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>> |
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3 - >>:w - Write file to disk |
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4 - >>:q - Quit |
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>> |
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5 - >>Commands can be combined, eg; :wq - Write file to disk and Quit |
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>> |
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>>Five lines and users have all the knowledge they need to create / edit |
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>>their base system files. A few more short lines and you can explain |
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>>(global) search/replace to give them more advanced functionality. |
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> |
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> I don't see anything in those *4* lines explaining how to enter data (eg 'i' |
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|
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Five lines. A sixth could be added that reads along the lines of; |
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|
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Press 'i' to enter insert / edit mode, press Esc to return to command mode. |
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|
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(Word wrap notwithstanding) |
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|
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> or 'a'), but like fdisk, vi would require explaining how to use it whereas |
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> nano is obvious, so it should be includes, but not in the manual. |
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|
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That's my point - how much "obvious" stuff are we going to include in |
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the installation procedure of a self-proclaimed "advanced user" |
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distribution? |
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As for the installation manual, it should perhaps contian pointers to |
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instruct people how to reference the help / manual pages for these |
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respective applications. In fdisk, for example, the default prompt urges |
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you to press '?' for help. How much more obvious can it get? |
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>>I'm of the opinion that we have to set barriers; lines in the sand, if |
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>>you will. "This is how friendly we will become" and stick to those |
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>>boundaries. This would, of course, also help with the consistency issues |
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>>that are raised weekly on this list. ;> |
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> |
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> I agree we may need to keep the "idiot" and "real user" communities seperate, |
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> but there's no reason both cannot exist. |
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If we keep the entry bar high, we'll produce a more educated Linux user |
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community, and the forums, IRC channels and Bugzilla will be less |
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clogged with FAQs and inanities. (Read: Developer time better spent). |
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|
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Gentoo is in a great position to teach users to work with standard |
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tools, rather than looking for the easy-out two-click brainless method |
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emplored by 'other' OSs and distributions. We can teach users to look |
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through documentation and search engines and try to answer their own |
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questions before they come looking for hand holding. |
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|
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As I said before, this is a slippery slope. The more user-friendly you |
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make a tool, the more dumbed down people will want it. We're way behind |
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the likes of RedHat, Mandrake and SuSE in that regard and trying to |
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catch up would only put is in the league of so many other mediochre |
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distributions who've tried and failed. |
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|
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If people want an idiot-proof install, I tell them to investigate |
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RedHat. I won't reccomend Gentoo to a person who can barely fudge their |
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way through a Windows installation because it's unfair to them and the |
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user community. People offering support in #Gentoo shouldn't have to |
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answer 50 daily "Where is my C: drive?" questions. |
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|
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Beisdes that; if our installation procedure forces people to learn (and |
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more importantly; learn how to learn), we'll find ourselves with a swath |
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of qualified individuals from whom to select as new developers. |
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Right now the install.txt can be practically followed to the letter to |
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get a person up and running with a Gentoo system. I know; I've done it |
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myself; executed each command in sequence until eventually I was booted |
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to a login prompt and rearing to go. Consider how many people can't |
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understand this procedure and tell us on a daily basis how difficult |
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Gentoo is to install! |
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|
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-- |
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Stewart Honsberger |
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Gentoo Developer |
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http://www.snerk.org/ |
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gentoo-dev@g.o mailing list |