Gentoo Archives: gentoo-dev

From: Zach Welch <zwelch@g.o>
To: David Nielsen <Lovechild@××××××××.com>
Cc: gentoo-dev@g.o
Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Ebuild Janitor Project -- Any formalities to joining it?
Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 21:14:44
In Reply to: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Ebuild Janitor Project -- Any formalities to joining it? by David Nielsen
David Nielsen wrote:
 > Frankly people like you kill every possible joy I might get out of
 > this - all you do is complain, not one word about the relative
 > niceness of this project and what it could do for the state of the
 > ebuilds.

Okay, I will not let you toss around phrases such as 'people like you'
without throwing my hat in the ring.  When I started reading this
thread, I was very optimisitc about the possibilities your project could
hold, and I personally think a user-managed project to track new ebuilds
would better than using developer resources.  But when I look at this
reply, I can almost watch as your newly formed political island starts
sinking into the sea.  Be careful before you start shaking things up....

 > That being said - No, I didn't talk to anyone about it before going
 > ahead, portage is gpl'ed, I can do what ever I want to it, and I
 > intend to. I didn't want to announce anything untill it was off the
 > ground because I think people spend FAR to much time talking and FAR
 > to little time actually doing something.

You are absolutely correct about portage being GPL'd.  You can do
anything you want with it; however, the attitude you demonstrate here
will accomplish nothing but to alienate you from the developer
community.  I personally believe you've just done a great disservice to
your project by saying these things, as your statement here amounts to
nothing less than a thinly veiled threat to fork Gentoo.  I'm pretty
sure I speak for all the other devs when I say: go for it.

 > I didn't expect it to take off this fast, we have been going for a
 > few days, and there are now several ebuilds waiting in queue to be
 > comfirmed working once that has happened they will be forwarded to
 > bugzilla. (This all written in the guidelines on the forum, but I'm
 > guessing you didn't even take your time to read that).

The problem with your system is one of trust.  Developers do *not*
blindly trust submissions of new ebuilds.  Even if your system works
perfectly to improve the quality of Bugzilla submissions, it will take
time for the project to earn the trust of the Gentoo developers.  Your
starting off by implying 'people like you' are part of the problem will
make it more difficult (if only a little) for you to find support for
those submissions.

I just want everyone to understand that that there are more than
technical issues at play here; the process for getting something into
Portage involves more than technical discussion or review - it requires
getting along with the project leaders, demonstrating to them that you
know what you are doing, and contributing only what the majority of
developers are willing to support.

Most of the developers are working their butts off behind the scene - I
personally put in no less than 60 hours a week on Gentoo, improving it
is now my full-time, self-employed job.  All of the cross-compiling and
embedded support that I am presently developing with and for Gentoo is
GPL'd and available, and there are others that manage to contribute far
more than me (both visible and behind the scenes).

There is far more work being done by developers than can be given
credit, so complaints of this nature that appear to come out of nowhere
are tantamont to blasphemy and more than enough to give us ulcers.

All this coming from someone that (a) would be willing to support your
project from the "inside" and (b) is helping with the back-end services
that could make it feasible from a QA standpoint.  In other words,
someone that you really want to have on your team.  You can easily fix
this with me, but I want this to be a lesson to the wider community:

The way that individuals interact, both politically and socially, with
the Gentoo culture matters more than anything that you can bring into
it.  In other words, a technical solution is only welcome when it does
not disrupt the culture - the culture must be ready for the solution.
Put more broadly: we don't want you playing in our sandbox if you don't

The point being that, as much as many of us might love the idea of your
project, we are not ready to implement it today.  It will be too
distruptive to the existing culture; reform can not happen overnight.
In that respect, discussion this subject further on these lists is *not*
appropriat - it will only cause further distraction and disruption.

Please, I want this thread to end here and now, and I thought very
carefully about whether I should send it at all.  Flame me personally
but keep it off the list.  If my sentiments do not truly reflect those
of "management", then let them put in any final words.


Zach Welch
Gentoo Developer

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