Gentoo Archives: gentoo-dev

From: Aron Griffis <agriffis@g.o>
To: gentoo-dev@l.g.o
Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] adding a code of conduct
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 15:55:49
Message-Id: 20060404155331.GA27452@vino.zko.hp.com
In Reply to: [gentoo-dev] adding a code of conduct by Mike Frysinger
1 Vapier wrote: [Tue Apr 04 2006, 01:27:54AM EDT]
2 > On Monday 03 April 2006 19:35, Aron Griffis wrote:
3 > > I disagree with fast-tracking this to any official Gentoo
4 > > documentation.
5 >
6 > i never used the word "fast" ... where did it come from ?
7
8 Earlier you said:
9
10 Vapier wrote: [Mon Apr 03 2006, 05:38:48PM EDT]
11 > this is on track to be integrated as-is into the dev handbook
12 > Etiquette section
13
14 You're right, I introduced the word "fast" but it's what I thought you
15 meant by "on track to be integrated as-is". Sorry if I misunderstood.
16
17 > > > Be considerate. Your work will be used by other people, and you in
18 > > > turn will depend on the work of others. Any decision you make will
19 > > > affect users and colleagues, and we expect you to take those
20 > > > consequences into account when making decisions.
21 > >
22 > > All of this is obvious, except for who is "we"?
23 >
24 > the Gentoo community ? your peers and loved ones ?
25
26 Ok, thanks for the clarification. IMHO "we expect" is patronizing,
27 which is unfortunately the overall tone of this document. I'm not
28 just whining here... I'm willing to offer alternative suggestions that
29 hopefull will drop that tone. For example, how does this sound
30 instead?
31
32 Be considerate. Your work is used by other people, and you in
33 turn depend on the work of others. Each decision you make affects
34 users and colleagues, so consider your choices carefully in light
35 of the consequences.
36
37 > > > Be respectful. The Gentoo community and its members treat one
38 > > > another with respect.
39 > >
40 > > Odd to make this declarative statement when it isn't true.
41 >
42 > this document now exists because this statement isnt true ... this is one part
43 > of a solution imo
44
45 Personally, I think your statement in another subthread regarding two
46 kinds of respect was more valuable than this questionable declaration.
47 You were wrong, though, regarding respect. Respect is always earned.
48 The term we need here is "grace", which refers to giving something
49 that isn't necessarily deserved. Here is my attempt at rewriting that
50 entire paragraph:
51
52 Be gracious. When a disagreement arises, the possibility exists
53 that you are wrong and the other person is right. Especially
54 when a situation is frustrating, you give the most to the Gentoo
55 community by responding humbly and patiently.
56
57 Personally I think this covers the bases. I don't think it's
58 necessary to detail who deserves this kind of treatment, the very
59 definition of grace implies that it applies to everybody.
60
61 I also like this because it's different from Ubuntu's document. That
62 isn't reason in itself, but it's nice to believe that we've carefully
63 chosen our words and eventually produced something that applies best
64 to Gentoo.
65
66 > > > Everyone can make a valuable contribution to Gentoo.
67 > >
68 > > They can? Making this kind of feel-good blanket statement just
69 > > detracts from the rest of this document.
70 >
71 > how so ? one of the critiques we have is that one jackass can turn off
72 > users/potential devs simply by their abrasive behavior. another critique is
73 > that some of us (i am guilty of this as well) of being too "snobbish" in
74 > terms of who can actually make useful contributions (generally if you have an
75 > @gentoo.org, that somehow "qualifies" you while those who do not are just
76 > meat). i recognize i'm a bit of a dick and i'm trying to change.
77
78 I took this out in my rewrite above. I'm not trying to deny that it's
79 a mindset that we should have, but IMHO it doesn't lend anything
80 beyond what has already been said. If you think it really needs to be
81 said, I can try to work it back in...
82
83 > > > We may not always agree, but disagreement is no excuse for
84 > > > poor behaviour and poor manners. We might all experience some
85 > > > frustration now and then, but we cannot allow that frustration to
86 > > > turn into a personal attacks. It's important to remember that
87 > > > a community where people feel uncomfortable or threatened is not
88 > > > a productive one.
89 > >
90 > > This should be shortened to say just what it means: Developers will
91 > > have more fun, be more productive, and create a better distribution if
92 > > we concentrate on the issues instead of resorting to personal attacks.
93 >
94 > i sort of like the longer winded version better ... really this paragraph
95 > shouldnt have to exist at all, but since it does, i like the version that
96 > spells out each detail clearly.
97
98 Heh, I don't see it as details, I see it as rambling and muddiness.
99 But you're right that my original attempt lost the concept. What do
100 you think of my new one ("Be gracious...")
101
102 > > > Be collaborative. Gentoo and Free Software are about collaboration
103 > > > and working together. Collaboration reduces redundancy of work done
104 > > > in the Free Software world, and improves the quality of the software
105 > > > produced. You should aim to collaborate with other Gentoo
106 > > > maintainers, as well as with the upstream community that is
107 > > > interested in the work you do. Your work should be done
108 > > > transparently and patches from Gentoo should be given back to the
109 > > > community when they are made, not just when the distribution
110 > > > releases. If you wish to work on new code for existing upstream
111 > > > projects, at least keep those projects informed of your ideas and
112 > > > progress. It may not be possible to get consensus from upstream or
113 > > > even from your colleagues about the correct implementation of an
114 > > > idea, so don't feel obliged to have that agreement before you begin,
115 > > > but at least keep the outside world informed of your work, and
116 > > > publish your work in a way that allows outsiders to test, discuss
117 > > > and contribute to your efforts.
118 > >
119 > > This part makes sense, I think... though I don't see the point of
120 > > codifying it except to "throw the book" at the next Paludis. Frankly
121 > > I think Ciaran did nothing wrong to restrict distribution on a project
122 > > he didn't feel was ready for public consumption. It has always seemed
123 > > to me like the overreactions were the problem.
124 >
125 > err, i dont see this interpretation at all ... how would this affect the
126 > Paludis work ? in anything, it codifies the work as being even "more" valid
127 >
128 > really though, this paragraph is not targeted at the Paludis project or Ciaran
129 > in any way ... not quite sure where this thought of yours is coming from
130
131 Ok, thanks for the clarification.
132
133 > > > When you disagree, consult others. Disagreements, both political and
134 > > > technical, happen all the time and the Gentoo community is no
135 > > > exception. The important goal is not to avoid disagreements or
136 > > > differing views but to resolve them constructively. You should turn
137 > > > to the community and to the community process to seek advice and to
138 > > > resolve disagreements. We have the Council, Infra, Devrel and Team
139 > > > Leaders all of which help you decide the right course for Gentoo.
140 > >
141 > > What do you mean by "turn to the community and to the community
142 > > process"? I'm not sure what that entails.
143 >
144 > we have a couple "standard" means of opening community discussion. irc,
145 > e-mail lists, forums, you name it.
146 >
147 > > And I'm really not sure I understand what the last sentence means.
148 >
149 > the idea is to provide some good examples of resources you can query for
150 > feedback ... perhaps tweak the sentence a little ?
151
152 Yeah, I'll try to think about it in a follow up. I need to do
153 a little work work now, instead of Gentoo work.
154
155 > > > Repeated disruptive behaviors will be viewed as a security and
156 > > > stability threat to Gentoo.
157 > >
158 > > Classic switching to the passive voice when the actor wishes to be
159 > > distanced from the action.
160 >
161 > please consider the document without these disciplinary related paragraphs as
162 > they belong elsewhere
163
164 Great, thanks.
165
166 Regards,
167 Aron
168 --
169 gentoo-dev@g.o mailing list