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Vapier wrote: [Tue Apr 04 2006, 01:27:54AM EDT] |
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> On Monday 03 April 2006 19:35, Aron Griffis wrote: |
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> > I disagree with fast-tracking this to any official Gentoo |
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> > documentation. |
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> |
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> i never used the word "fast" ... where did it come from ? |
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|
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Earlier you said: |
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|
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Vapier wrote: [Mon Apr 03 2006, 05:38:48PM EDT] |
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> this is on track to be integrated as-is into the dev handbook |
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> Etiquette section |
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|
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You're right, I introduced the word "fast" but it's what I thought you |
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meant by "on track to be integrated as-is". Sorry if I misunderstood. |
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> > > Be considerate. Your work will be used by other people, and you in |
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> > > turn will depend on the work of others. Any decision you make will |
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> > > affect users and colleagues, and we expect you to take those |
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> > > consequences into account when making decisions. |
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> > |
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> > All of this is obvious, except for who is "we"? |
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> |
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> the Gentoo community ? your peers and loved ones ? |
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|
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Ok, thanks for the clarification. IMHO "we expect" is patronizing, |
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which is unfortunately the overall tone of this document. I'm not |
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just whining here... I'm willing to offer alternative suggestions that |
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hopefull will drop that tone. For example, how does this sound |
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instead? |
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|
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Be considerate. Your work is used by other people, and you in |
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turn depend on the work of others. Each decision you make affects |
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users and colleagues, so consider your choices carefully in light |
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of the consequences. |
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|
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> > > Be respectful. The Gentoo community and its members treat one |
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> > > another with respect. |
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> > |
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> > Odd to make this declarative statement when it isn't true. |
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> |
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> this document now exists because this statement isnt true ... this is one part |
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> of a solution imo |
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|
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Personally, I think your statement in another subthread regarding two |
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kinds of respect was more valuable than this questionable declaration. |
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You were wrong, though, regarding respect. Respect is always earned. |
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The term we need here is "grace", which refers to giving something |
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that isn't necessarily deserved. Here is my attempt at rewriting that |
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entire paragraph: |
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|
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Be gracious. When a disagreement arises, the possibility exists |
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that you are wrong and the other person is right. Especially |
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when a situation is frustrating, you give the most to the Gentoo |
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community by responding humbly and patiently. |
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|
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Personally I think this covers the bases. I don't think it's |
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necessary to detail who deserves this kind of treatment, the very |
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definition of grace implies that it applies to everybody. |
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|
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I also like this because it's different from Ubuntu's document. That |
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isn't reason in itself, but it's nice to believe that we've carefully |
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chosen our words and eventually produced something that applies best |
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to Gentoo. |
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|
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> > > Everyone can make a valuable contribution to Gentoo. |
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> > |
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> > They can? Making this kind of feel-good blanket statement just |
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> > detracts from the rest of this document. |
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> |
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> how so ? one of the critiques we have is that one jackass can turn off |
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> users/potential devs simply by their abrasive behavior. another critique is |
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> that some of us (i am guilty of this as well) of being too "snobbish" in |
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> terms of who can actually make useful contributions (generally if you have an |
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> @gentoo.org, that somehow "qualifies" you while those who do not are just |
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> meat). i recognize i'm a bit of a dick and i'm trying to change. |
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|
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I took this out in my rewrite above. I'm not trying to deny that it's |
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a mindset that we should have, but IMHO it doesn't lend anything |
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beyond what has already been said. If you think it really needs to be |
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said, I can try to work it back in... |
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|
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> > > We may not always agree, but disagreement is no excuse for |
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> > > poor behaviour and poor manners. We might all experience some |
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> > > frustration now and then, but we cannot allow that frustration to |
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> > > turn into a personal attacks. It's important to remember that |
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> > > a community where people feel uncomfortable or threatened is not |
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> > > a productive one. |
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> > |
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> > This should be shortened to say just what it means: Developers will |
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> > have more fun, be more productive, and create a better distribution if |
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> > we concentrate on the issues instead of resorting to personal attacks. |
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> |
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> i sort of like the longer winded version better ... really this paragraph |
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> shouldnt have to exist at all, but since it does, i like the version that |
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> spells out each detail clearly. |
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|
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Heh, I don't see it as details, I see it as rambling and muddiness. |
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But you're right that my original attempt lost the concept. What do |
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you think of my new one ("Be gracious...") |
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|
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> > > Be collaborative. Gentoo and Free Software are about collaboration |
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> > > and working together. Collaboration reduces redundancy of work done |
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> > > in the Free Software world, and improves the quality of the software |
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> > > produced. You should aim to collaborate with other Gentoo |
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> > > maintainers, as well as with the upstream community that is |
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> > > interested in the work you do. Your work should be done |
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> > > transparently and patches from Gentoo should be given back to the |
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> > > community when they are made, not just when the distribution |
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> > > releases. If you wish to work on new code for existing upstream |
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> > > projects, at least keep those projects informed of your ideas and |
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> > > progress. It may not be possible to get consensus from upstream or |
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> > > even from your colleagues about the correct implementation of an |
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> > > idea, so don't feel obliged to have that agreement before you begin, |
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> > > but at least keep the outside world informed of your work, and |
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> > > publish your work in a way that allows outsiders to test, discuss |
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> > > and contribute to your efforts. |
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> > |
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> > This part makes sense, I think... though I don't see the point of |
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> > codifying it except to "throw the book" at the next Paludis. Frankly |
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> > I think Ciaran did nothing wrong to restrict distribution on a project |
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> > he didn't feel was ready for public consumption. It has always seemed |
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> > to me like the overreactions were the problem. |
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> |
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> err, i dont see this interpretation at all ... how would this affect the |
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> Paludis work ? in anything, it codifies the work as being even "more" valid |
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> |
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> really though, this paragraph is not targeted at the Paludis project or Ciaran |
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> in any way ... not quite sure where this thought of yours is coming from |
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|
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Ok, thanks for the clarification. |
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|
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> > > When you disagree, consult others. Disagreements, both political and |
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> > > technical, happen all the time and the Gentoo community is no |
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> > > exception. The important goal is not to avoid disagreements or |
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> > > differing views but to resolve them constructively. You should turn |
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> > > to the community and to the community process to seek advice and to |
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> > > resolve disagreements. We have the Council, Infra, Devrel and Team |
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> > > Leaders all of which help you decide the right course for Gentoo. |
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> > |
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> > What do you mean by "turn to the community and to the community |
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> > process"? I'm not sure what that entails. |
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> |
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> we have a couple "standard" means of opening community discussion. irc, |
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> e-mail lists, forums, you name it. |
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> |
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> > And I'm really not sure I understand what the last sentence means. |
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> |
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> the idea is to provide some good examples of resources you can query for |
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> feedback ... perhaps tweak the sentence a little ? |
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Yeah, I'll try to think about it in a follow up. I need to do |
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a little work work now, instead of Gentoo work. |
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> > > Repeated disruptive behaviors will be viewed as a security and |
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> > > stability threat to Gentoo. |
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> > |
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> > Classic switching to the passive voice when the actor wishes to be |
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> > distanced from the action. |
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> |
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> please consider the document without these disciplinary related paragraphs as |
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> they belong elsewhere |
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|
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Great, thanks. |
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|
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Regards, |
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Aron |
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-- |
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