Gentoo Archives: gentoo-dev

From: David Nielsen <Lovechild@××××××××.com>
To: gentoo-dev@g.o
Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Ebuild Janitor Project -- Any formalities to joining it?
Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 21:40:08
1 This is just getting out of hand...
3 I announce a project and suddenly I'm the antichrist.
5 I did not treated to fork portage anywhere - I can't even code python
6 for crying out loud.
8 Okay, the main issue seems to be getting along with developers.
10 Here's a little background, I have Tourette' syndrome and I'm on
11 antidepressants following an attempt at taking my life, bare with me I
12 have a short fuse - I take shit all day.
14 Here's what makes me happy, getting good ideas, and this project seemed
15 like a good idea - So I took a chance, I never expected the project to
16 take off the way it did, I figured I would fix up a few critical ebuilds
17 a week and submit them to Bugzilla. It seems we need a quicker solution
18 without compromising the stability of portage as a whole - we don't want
19 broken shit in there do we?
21 We also need an agreement on Janitorial suggestions on portage and USE
22 flag improvements - If we are to review all ebuilds we probably need to
23 have an easy way to debating new USE flags other than bugzilla.
25 Here's the plan as laid out in advance:
27 We plan to release a tarball once a week with new ebuilds, now we are
28 not asking for them to just go directly into portage, so there needs to
29 be some developer review time going on also if possible - we also wanna
30 make sure we waste as little time as possible right?
32 The plan has also always been to keep the project extremely open, that's
33 why we have the forum, it's an exellent way of keeping track of what
34 people are doing and what concerns we might have. We could simply cry
35 "help" when we need some assistance which might work fine. There
36 shouldn't be a exceedingly great need for developers input when talking
37 just ebuilds, we are talking a new USE flag every now and again maybe.
39 As for future ideas for portage development, I would suggest checking
40 the forum every now and again, there are some extremely wacky people
41 throwing around ideas in there, once an idea is developed we will submit
42 it to gentoo-dev for debating.
44 deal ?
46 Lovechild
48 Oh the janitor forums are down for the time being, I'm unaware of the
49 reason - Slougi is in charge of that.
51 On Sun, 2003-05-11 at 23:14, Zach Welch wrote:
52 > David Nielsen wrote:
53 > > Frankly people like you kill every possible joy I might get out of
54 > > this - all you do is complain, not one word about the relative
55 > > niceness of this project and what it could do for the state of the
56 > > ebuilds.
57 >
58 > Okay, I will not let you toss around phrases such as 'people like you'
59 > without throwing my hat in the ring. When I started reading this
60 > thread, I was very optimisitc about the possibilities your project
61 could
62 > hold, and I personally think a user-managed project to track new
63 ebuilds
64 > would better than using developer resources. But when I look at this
65 > reply, I can almost watch as your newly formed political island starts
66 > sinking into the sea. Be careful before you start shaking things
67 up....
68 >
69 > > That being said - No, I didn't talk to anyone about it before going
70 > > ahead, portage is gpl'ed, I can do what ever I want to it, and I
71 > > intend to. I didn't want to announce anything untill it was off the
72 > > ground because I think people spend FAR to much time talking and
73 FAR
74 > > to little time actually doing something.
75 >
76 > You are absolutely correct about portage being GPL'd. You can do
77 > anything you want with it; however, the attitude you demonstrate here
78 > will accomplish nothing but to alienate you from the developer
79 > community. I personally believe you've just done a great disservice
80 to
81 > your project by saying these things, as your statement here amounts to
82 > nothing less than a thinly veiled threat to fork Gentoo. I'm pretty
83 > sure I speak for all the other devs when I say: go for it.
84 >
85 > > I didn't expect it to take off this fast, we have been going for a
86 > > few days, and there are now several ebuilds waiting in queue to be
87 > > comfirmed working once that has happened they will be forwarded to
88 > > bugzilla. (This all written in the guidelines on the forum, but I'm
89 > > guessing you didn't even take your time to read that).
90 >
91 > The problem with your system is one of trust. Developers do *not*
92 > blindly trust submissions of new ebuilds. Even if your system works
93 > perfectly to improve the quality of Bugzilla submissions, it will take
94 > time for the project to earn the trust of the Gentoo developers. Your
95 > starting off by implying 'people like you' are part of the problem
96 will
97 > make it more difficult (if only a little) for you to find support for
98 > those submissions.
99 >
100 > I just want everyone to understand that that there are more than
101 > technical issues at play here; the process for getting something into
102 > Portage involves more than technical discussion or review - it
103 requires
104 > getting along with the project leaders, demonstrating to them that you
105 > know what you are doing, and contributing only what the majority of
106 > developers are willing to support.
107 >
108 > Most of the developers are working their butts off behind the scene -
109 I
110 > personally put in no less than 60 hours a week on Gentoo, improving it
111 > is now my full-time, self-employed job. All of the cross-compiling
112 and
113 > embedded support that I am presently developing with and for Gentoo is
114 > GPL'd and available, and there are others that manage to contribute
115 far
116 > more than me (both visible and behind the scenes).
117 >
118 > There is far more work being done by developers than can be given
119 > credit, so complaints of this nature that appear to come out of
120 nowhere
121 > are tantamont to blasphemy and more than enough to give us ulcers.
122 >
123 > All this coming from someone that (a) would be willing to support your
124 > project from the "inside" and (b) is helping with the back-end
125 services
126 > that could make it feasible from a QA standpoint. In other words,
127 > someone that you really want to have on your team. You can easily fix
128 > this with me, but I want this to be a lesson to the wider community:
129 >
130 > The way that individuals interact, both politically and socially, with
131 > the Gentoo culture matters more than anything that you can bring into
132 > it. In other words, a technical solution is only welcome when it does
133 > not disrupt the culture - the culture must be ready for the solution.
134 > Put more broadly: we don't want you playing in our sandbox if you
135 don't
136 > want to play nice. THIS GOT ME KICKED OUT OF GENTOO, LISTEN TO ME!
137 >
138 > The point being that, as much as many of us might love the idea of
139 your
140 > project, we are not ready to implement it today. It will be too
141 > distruptive to the existing culture; reform can not happen overnight.
142 > In that respect, discussion this subject further on these lists is
143 *not*
144 > appropriat - it will only cause further distraction and disruption.
145 >
146 > Please, I want this thread to end here and now, and I thought very
147 > carefully about whether I should send it at all. Flame me personally
148 > but keep it off the list. If my sentiments do not truly reflect those
149 > of "management", then let them put in any final words.
150 >
151 > Cheers,
152 >
153 > Zach Welch
154 > Gentoo Developer
155 >
156 >
157 > --
158 > gentoo-dev@g.o mailing list
161 --
162 gentoo-dev@g.o mailing list


Subject Author
[gentoo-dev] Re: culture clash (was: Ebuild Janitor Project) Zach Welch <zwelch@g.o>