Re: [gentoo-dev] Project Sunrise resumed again (was Resignation)

[Mike Kelly]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 00:13:45 -0700
Joshua Jackson <tsunam@g.o> wrote:

> There is a lot of irony in this entire discussion. We are actually
> talking about going against what the heck part of the reason this
> project was started. Are we seriously that *can't find the word I'm
> looking for* idiotically to not see that we're arguing over not
> allowing a user a choice in what they want to do. That we are so high
> and mighty that we automatically know what is better for the user then
> they themselves know? Who defined us as the ones to make that choice
> for someone else, when we are supposedly about allowing choice.
>
> That is the issue at hand at the core of this. Its called choice.
> People can choose to use a separate program to download the sunrise
> overlays. That separates it entirely from the core tree itself. A
> disclaimer for checking out could be added that is prominent that will
> warn that these are a service provided to the community from the
> community. That those who have gone through the "developer mentorship"
> will continue to work on the core of the heart of gentoo, allowing us
> to focus and make the product so much better and quicker that you'll
> be blindsided with the new improved product. We'll have a rebirth so
> to speak.
>
> Bloody, I mean seriously...think about what it is we are arguing over,
> and then remember what gentoo is, why you came to it in the first
> place. That will probably tell you where it should go.

Speaking as a user of Gentoo in general, and as a small contributor to
Sunrise, I don't think your argument about "choice" really is relevant.
Since Gentoo is licensed under the GPL-2, end users can always choose
to do whatever the heck they want. They can make their own overlays,
patch packages to no tomorrow, and use whatever packages they wish on
their system.

As I understand it, the real goal is to let users get a taste of what
ebuild development is supposed to be like, and to give them a lot of
guidance and a chance to get their draft work peer reviewed. This is
something they could always /choose/ to do, either by visiting the
#gentoo-dev-help channel on freenode, posting a new ebuild on bugzilla,
the forums, etc. The Sunrise project is just trying to focus entirely
on ebuilds, while most of the above have other primary focuses.

I /think/ the issues some folks are taking with the project are:

 * It's dangerous to have this sort of thing "officially" affiliated
   with Gentoo because it has the potential to cause unforeseen
   breakage. For example, an ebuild in the tree may have a flag
   for ./configure which wasn't explicitly disabled but which will now
   auto-set itself on when a certain package from Sunrise was
   installed. This /could/ cause some breakage which is very difficult
   for someone trying to help a user submitting a bug to recreate, and
   create some wasted time and general frustration on both sides. In
   general, many wish to change the image of Gentoo being the "ricer"
   OS, and in some ways this project has that sort of air about it.

 * The design of the project, people involved, whatever, isn't
   conducive to it achieving its desired goal (helping train users in
   proper ebuild development). I think the point about not having
   involvement from the relevant herds or arch teams is related to this
   as well.I don't have enough experience to judge this point at all. 

Speaking just as myself, I think that, if I were to choose to use some
ebuild from Sunrise other than the one I wrote myself, I would be
careful and wouldn't scream to hard if something broke. I don't know
what others would do. I think that the project does have some merit and
seeks to achieve a worthy goal. I don't know, however, if it is the
best option available, or the best execution.

-- 
Mike Kelly