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Moving this to a higher visibility thread because I don't know how many |
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people think such an intense discussion is happening in the tail of a |
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package assignment ..... :P |
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|
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Most of my negativity/limitations are more about making sure we define |
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where we aught to go. |
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|
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They're less "Limits", more "guides", often enough. |
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|
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On Sun, 7 Aug 2016 12:24:37 -0500 |
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james <garftd@×××××××.net> wrote: |
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> Sure, I agree here, but, statistically these "hi level" languages are |
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> being taught, in lieu of C; and that is really sad. I'm sure there |
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> are exceptions, would you have a few CS departments that push C over |
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> java and the other, newer languages? (I'm curios). |
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|
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|
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Here, the "Limitation" as such is that once you realise that "C" is not |
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the only target, nor is Java, you realise there are going to be end |
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users who want "easy mode" and have no intent on doing any immediate |
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development work. |
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|
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Or we might have user bases who want ready-to-go media for python |
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development. |
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|
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This is not a "limitation", because if you think about customization, |
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we can very much provide all the choices. |
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|
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And theoretically, we can provide named sets of default good choices |
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that are "reasonably good for the purpose they describe", and then |
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people can pick and choose what they want, and then if they want to |
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expert-mode it, they can hand craft their own "choice set", or progress |
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to installing their base system like the rest of us. |
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|
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> |
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> > |
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> > You can't satisfy everyone out of the box. |
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> > |
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> > |
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> > The rest of your response kinda rotates around a central axiom that |
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> > makes other Linux distributions effective, and "Easy": |
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> > |
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> > The lack of choice, a tailored work flow, a target audience, and a |
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> > narrow focus on what the vendor delivers. |
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> > |
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> > Gentoo is fundamentally unlike these things, because the Gentoo way |
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> > has always been first and foremost about *user choice* and |
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> > *maximising user choice* |
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> |
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> Noting in promoting an easy install semantic for a default, buildable |
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> system, precludes choice after the system is installed and boot. For |
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> examle a default install, using Calamares and ending up with KDE, |
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> could easily then have kde removed and lxqt installed. That would be |
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> up to the new user to figure out, via the handbook and the wiki.... |
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> |
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> |
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> > The reality is a giant hunk of the world are *not interested in |
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> > choice* They want something that works and get out of their way. |
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> |
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> Quite true, but we're talking about increasing gentoo's update |
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> amongst those linux leaners, not converting windows/mac users that |
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> are not interested in alternatives.... |
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> |
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> > |
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> > That's why proprietary systems with deep, vertical architecture and |
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> > product lock-in are still incredibly popular. |
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> > They understand their market, and they focus on making things work |
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> > for that market by tailoring it to a very narrow set of features |
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> > that satisfies 95% of its target. |
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> |
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> Support is always a crowd pleaser, imho. So with fresh ideas, the |
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> newest members support those right behind them in line with user |
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> level issues. Noobs helping noobs. buntu has proven this works, if |
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> nothing else. |
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> |
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> > |
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> > Gentoo's target audience is decidedly that other 5%, the group of |
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> > people who don't mind getting their hands dirty, the group who wade |
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> > up to their elbows dealing with horrible problems because that's the |
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> > consequence of the power of choice. |
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> |
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> What I proposed, models for easier install and a VM/Container system |
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> that is secure and allow for experimentation with "jentoo" does not |
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> limit, but, encourage choice and experimentation. |
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> |
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> Let's focus on the easy install. Once folks get a running gentoo |
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> system, most figure out how to manage it and like the choices, build |
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> from sources (and bin packages for the larger/complex). |
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> |
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> > |
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> > You can promote pre-boxed Gentoo products if you want, I just think |
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> > you're barking up the wrong tree if you think doing that will help |
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> > anybody. |
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> |
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> You are misconstruing the message. It's a boxed, quick install that |
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> would behave going forward, with the same (exact) semantics as a |
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> grudge-filled traditional install. The only difference is that first |
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> install is |
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> quick, fast and easy. Nothing else changes, unless this fresh install |
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> chooses to embrace additional packaging or alternative packages |
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> compare to the default install. Nobody needs to make that decision. |
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> Surely many will then go read the handbook and the wiki to move |
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> forward. The install just becomes painless for a few basic or default |
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> examples. We do currently provide an occasional 'liveDVD'. So just |
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> image one of those, with an easy install pathway. |
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> |
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> > |
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> > As with most open source, it requires volunteer effort to make this |
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> > happen, and its a hard sell to try to convince existing staff to |
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> > spend more time on producing a thing that exists only to *reduce* |
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> > user choice for the sake of convenience. |
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> |
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> Again, you are incorrectly suggesting that these easy installs will |
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> preclude traditional gentoo semantics for adding, modifying, patching, |
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> or any other form of currently available modifications or enhancement |
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> from occurring. I'm not certain if you are twisting the focus here |
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> intentionally, or you are just limited in your imagination? Nobody |
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> wants that (artificial) limitation, so why would it me the semantic |
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> going forward, after an easy install? |
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> |
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> Think of it like sex. All of the traditional would be wonderfully |
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> available, but we're just adding a quickie (install) as an extra |
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> option. No limitations, just *choice* on the install. |
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> |
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> |
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> |
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> > And I just think most of our devs have more interesting problems to |
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> > solve than that, and you'd be simply weakening the core Gentoo |
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> > development team by trying to steal existing Gentoo staff to |
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> > engineer this carefully designed and polished "Just Works For |
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> > Noobs" platform. |
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> |
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> Agreed. My idea is some encouragement and maybe receive a little bit |
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> of positive advise. The noobs will help the noobs, and a few will |
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> migrate down the maintainer--> dev pathway. |
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> |
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> On this list and elsewhere gentoo devs have admitted to using quickie |
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> installs, and liked it. It's just frowned upon to document it and |
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> encourage it. Like a wiki page on how to convert a calculate or |
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> sabayon install to a traditional gentoo system. |
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> > |
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> > And even then, I think if you did OK, it would be striving for the |
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> > wrong thing. |
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> |
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> An easy install, does not have to be detrimental. Over the years I |
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> have taught quite a few 'youngsters' how to drive on rural flat land |
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> in a big 4x4 with an automatic transmission and a booster seat. You |
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> just put the transfer case into low, and they cannot go very fast and |
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> the love the *power*, spinning tires and slinging mud and riding |
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> around. Later on in life they all have matured into productive adults. |
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> |
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> Face it, gentoo is a power trip, we all know that. Letting folks feel |
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> that, in a easy, but real, quick install default version, that |
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> eventually hooks them into gentoo. |
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> |
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> |
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> > |
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> > If you're going to come to a competition that has existing major |
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> > players ( such as the "noob friendly" linux desktop market ), you |
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> > have to not be simply a "me too!" in order to hope for success. |
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> |
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> The power of Gentoo-traditional awaits them, soon after reading and |
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> learning from the handbook and the wiki. Not all will use this, but, |
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> it sure would put a more attractive face on taking gentoo for a test |
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> drive. |
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> |
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> > |
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> > You have to have something unique that blows all the competition |
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> > out of the water in at least one way, that capitalises on an |
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> > un-tapped need. |
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> > |
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> > Anything else will just be some pathetic copy-cat attempt. |
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> > |
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> > And for Gentoo, our "Unique Edge" *is* our configurability, our |
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> > incredibly effective and convenient flexibility. |
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> |
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> Again, nothing in this idea inhibits the full power of gentoo from |
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> being available; nothing. The begging of (their) journey is easier and |
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> more appealing. Many will stay in the valley of the noobs, but other |
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> will turn to the handbook and the wiki; just as grasshopper became |
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> shaolin, imho. Monk my words..... |
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> |
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> |
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> > |
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> > Sacrificing our primary benefit to chase after some other market |
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> > half-assedly ... I can't see that panning out well myself. |
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> |
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> You keep with this false choice, that is non-sequitur. The only |
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> limiting here is your mind. |
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> |
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> |
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> > |
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> > Personally, I think we need to double down on what we're good at, |
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> > flexibility, and configurability. |
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> |
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> No arguments there. Putting an experimental for of gentoo, complete |
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> with questionable java, into a secure Gentoo hosted VM or Container, |
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> is not flexibility and configurability? |
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> |
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> |
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> > |
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> > Find ways of building systems at the users behest that do exactly |
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> > what they want easily, and not assume we know what is best for our |
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> > users. |
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> |
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> You should go to any of the progressive job boards (stackoverflow |
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> etc). Java is everywhere. It should not be mandated but a choice. |
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> Sincere the are numerous issues java, secure it via a VM or a |
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> container, if that can be done? |
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> |
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> |
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> |
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> > |
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> > Anything else and Gentoo will go in the direction of the sad sorry |
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> > state of the Linux Desktop, where neither GTK/Gnome or QT/KDE are |
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> > very useable anymore, and they've become encumbered with horribly |
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> > lethargic and bloated design, because they were all trying too hard |
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> > to chase what they thought people wanted, the standard established |
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> > by Windows and OSX for "Easy". |
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> > |
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> Agreed and that is not what I'm proposing, either. I'm proposing an |
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> easy install for a few types of basic systems (that choice is open to |
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> discussion). And, if possible, a way to put either a secure VM or a |
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> secure container on a hardened gentoo system to put an |
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> insecure/experimental form of jentoo into. |
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|
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|
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Here is my incomplete idea of how I would see this working out in our |
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favour. |
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|
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For one, some context: On Quora, I frequently see questions in the form |
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"I have <blah> condition and <blah> requirements, what is the right |
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linux for me and my hardware <blah>" |
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|
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There are literally so many such questions its mind-numbing. |
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|
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Explaining the nuance and benefits of lots of different alternatives is |
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a pain in the ass, and it would be nicer to simply say "Gentoo" for |
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each and every question, then tack onto it "Under configuration X" |
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|
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|
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Here's what I think would be "Nice". |
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|
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1. "Nice" Installer that did the grunt work, but which grunt work it did |
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was not actually specified by that installer. |
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|
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2. Instead, the "Nice" installer is fed a recipie file, and the recipie |
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file glues user input and system configuration together, which the |
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installer than "Makes happen". |
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|
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3. Recipie files would in part contain a SHA1 containing the git commit |
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on repo/gentoo.git that it used to install from, and they would end up |
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at the end of their execution provisioning /etc/portage and friends, |
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and finialising an install. |
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|
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4. The key part of relying on "Set of specified configuration and SHA1" |
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is repeatability. |
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|
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Historically a lot of the headaches I've found with Gentoo was you |
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tried to install your brand new system, and oops, the configuration you |
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chose ran into some bug and you had to think about things, because the |
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tree got updated between the time the instructions were written and the |
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time you tried to do them. |
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|
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And that kind of problem is bound to leak into any installer that |
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installs "Fresh" from updated sources. |
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|
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This means with a "recipie + SHA1" combination you can either |
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|
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a) Download the recipie only and bootstrap that recipie into a full |
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system downloading everything as you go |
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|
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b) Use that recipie to pre-build resources and assemble installation |
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media that allows you to perform an identical implementation of a, sans |
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internet access. |
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|
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Though doing both of these would be hard in some cases, because if the |
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recipie is configuration-free in regards to compile flags, then both |
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can be done. But if configuration needs to change compilation, 'b' gets |
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a little trickier. |
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|
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Essentially, I'm kinda thinking beyond "Just a thing" and thinking in |
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the direction more of "A meta thing". |
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|
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If you want to make people feel powerful, how much more can you get |
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than doing what we've done with .ebuilds? |
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|
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Ebuild being bash may be a horrible format, but man, every day I use it |
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and see what everyone else is doing, I just love it. You can get insane |
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loads of stuff done with incredibly little effort. |
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|
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And if you want to give people power trips, what could be more powerful |
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than empowering everyone to create their own flavour of |
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gentoo-based linux just by tweaking a bash script? |
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|
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Then we'd just have a maintained repository of these recipies that are |
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vetted by devs and signed. |
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|
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And you could even have a net-inst installer that starts out by syncing |
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that repository and giving you a list of recipies to install from. |
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|
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Emerge yourself a whole gentoo :P |
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|
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NB: I'm really tired, so I'm in that "can't tell if this is brilliance |
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or deranged rambling" mode. |