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On Thu, 2017-02-02 at 15:35 -0500, james wrote: |
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> On 02/02/2017 01:01 PM, Rich Freeman wrote: |
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> > On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 11:25 AM, Michael Orlitzky <mjo@g.o> |
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> > wrote: |
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> > > |
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> > > If (base == minimal), then all of the upstream defaults need to |
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> > > be added |
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> > > to package.use for the upstream-defaults profile. That's bad, |
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> > |
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> > I'll go further and say that it is unacceptably bad. |
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> > |
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> > > but if |
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> > > (base == upstream-defaults), then the important IUSE defaults |
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> > > need to be |
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> > > copy/pasted from our ebuilds into the minimal profile. The latter |
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> > > is |
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> > > more spiritually damning =) |
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> > > |
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> > |
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> > So, I'll admit I've never been one that cared a great deal about |
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> > minimalism so I appreciate that I may not be the best one to judge |
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> > this, so let's go ahead and embrace your statement for the purpose |
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> > of |
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> > debate. |
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> > |
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> > Is there a better way we can have our cake and eat it too? I'll |
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> > admit |
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> > that a huge package.use on the minimal profile isn't a whole lot |
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> > better than a huge package.use on all the other profiles. |
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> > |
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> > Do we need another form of syntax in individual ebuilds to try to |
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> > separate out the various cases you cite? Does anybody care to |
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> > actually suggest one? |
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> |
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> I think that unikernels are something everyone should be aware of |
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> as they purport to be the latest trend in securing all sorts of |
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> systems. |
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> (a brief read). |
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> |
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> http://unikernel.org/ |
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> |
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> |
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> Perhaps we should not have a 'minimal profile', as it means so many |
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> different things to so many different people. We have not even |
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> surveyed |
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> the user base... |
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> |
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> So if we think of all the possible profiles and sub-profiles as being |
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> organized in a tree structure, it is better to figure out logical |
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> organization of all profiles, imho. |
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> |
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> So how about profiles that are either under the embedded or basic |
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> 'moniker' in the profile tree. So embedded is the least number of |
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> packages possible, regardless of upstream, where folks build up |
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> from |
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> there to what they want as a finished system. Embedded, clusters, |
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> HPC, |
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> and such are compatible enough for what I'm building to be under the |
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> same branch of the profile tree. If other folks want their cluster |
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> works |
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> under the basic part of the profile tree that is concerned with |
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> upstream, then they have their part of the profile tree located |
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> there. |
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> |
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> And the 'basic' part of the tree is similar to what we now call |
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> 'default' and the names build up in whatever schema those target |
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> builds |
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> desire, like basic+headless, basic+kde, basic+?+whatever..... ? |
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> |
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> And is there any reason, if necessary that other needs cannot be |
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> branched off, as necessary form the profile tree? Perhaps the main |
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> root |
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> is a state diagram of what is need and has links to relevant |
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> documents. |
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> That way the profile tree is a live system that can be enhance or |
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> modified to serve all of Gentoo's diverse visions. |
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> |
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> |
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> > I still think that we shouldn't encourage users to lightly deviate |
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> > from all the upstream defaults. There are of course legitimate |
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> > reasons for doing so, and you and I can probably appreciate when we |
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> > should do this, but for somebody starting out we're giving them a |
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> > lot |
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> > of rope to hang themselves with. |
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> |
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> This is only the case because profiles are in general in a mess and |
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> there are little in the way of conventions. What is so sacrosanct |
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> about |
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> upstream for a truly embedded gentoo system or a gentoo based IoT |
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> device? How many of the gentoo-embedded devs even bother to read |
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> gentoo-dev? Your vision seems to me to be tainted by the major |
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> distros |
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> and their visions, not be impolite, but they are way off course for h |
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> ttp://www.easyjet.com/en/ |
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> secure systems, embedded systems, IoT, HPC and numerous other active |
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> areas of Linux, imho. |
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> |
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> |
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> Think about it, if upstream is so brilliant, and has our needs 'at |
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> heart' then why have not the kernel-geniuses bothered to build a |
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> logical, coherent semantic for kernel configurations, management, |
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> security testing and such? If fact, if I were to be critical of |
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> upstream, I'd say those and many other issues should have been |
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> addressed |
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> before the adventures of systemd were dictated upon the larger user |
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> base. Upstream is an 'ad-hoc' mess, in the old days we called such |
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> entities a clusterF*. |
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> |
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> |
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> So those of us going back to minimal and basics and such venues, even |
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> with clusters, could not care less about Mozilla, systemd and |
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> thousands |
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> of other upstream folks that have lost their pathway forward. |
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> (deepest |
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> apologies, but I have very strong feelings about "upstream*". |
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> |
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> |
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> Many of the profiles in this and other recent threads, are just 'ad- |
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> hoc' |
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> naming structures and locations, and that historical flexibility |
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> extend |
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> to the devs is fantastic. This enhance/cleaning need of gentoo |
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> profiles |
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> needs to be well thought out and as flexible semantically as |
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> possible. |
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> |
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> |
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> It is absolutely a superior approach to not care at all what |
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> upstream |
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> does, to provide a pathway for embedded gentoo. That is a |
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> fundamental |
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> characteristic of what an embedded system is. Thanke the code, purge |
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> 90+ percent of this, and then install it on a embedded system so |
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> only what is needed is encluded. On a distro, you can pile on tons |
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> of uncessary codes, for convenience and not care, but embedded, |
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> it does matter. That is why so much of Iot is hacked and owned |
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> by folks with nefarious intentions. Much of 'upstream' is growing |
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> dumber by the day, and corporate manager and government interlopers |
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> are just loving the cruft of 'upstream'. |
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> |
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> |
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> Minimal is a close cousin to embedded, and now unikernels and |
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> aggressive |
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> HPC clusters are going that direction too in the name of |
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> performance, |
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> sane-management and reducing attack surfaces for the cloud or HPC |
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> cluster (not all, but many). |
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> |
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> |
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> Surely a branch of the gentoo profiles tree, could rigorously be |
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> focused |
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> on compatibility with upstream, but that inflexibility, if imposed |
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> on everyone else, will only serve to further alienate gentoo- |
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> embedded |
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> and serve as a unnecessary wedge between some minimal, HPC and |
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> unikernel |
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> types of gentoo builds. |
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> |
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> |
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> |
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> > It is like building a kernel |
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> > answering no to the largest number of questions possible while |
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> > still |
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> > actually building something. I'd actually be curious as to what |
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> > that |
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> > kernel would even be capable of doing (there are a lot of fairly |
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> > essential things you can turn off in the kernel). |
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> |
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> |
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> This is a whole other area of valid concern. Their was a GSoC project |
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> last summer to work on organizing gentooish kernel builds, but that |
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> is a |
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> very big topic. Perhaps the profiles will have to be proposed but not |
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> formalized until folks go out and do some kernel builds and testing |
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> associated with a proposed profile organization? |
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> |
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> |
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> > In the same way, we shouldn't be too quick to deviate from upstream |
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> > defaults ourselves (#4 in your example), beyond actual integration |
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> > work. |
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> > I'll admit the current state is a bit of a compromise, but I don't |
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> > think we should change it unless we're changing it to something |
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> > significantly better. This is a pretty big-impact change. |
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> |
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> |
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> Just formalize some new parts of the profile tree to not be required |
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> to |
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> be upstream compliant. Isn't that part of being a 'meta- |
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> distribution'? |
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> |
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> In my future (and the future of many others) there will be |
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> minimalistic |
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> builds on clusters where any number to constructs including |
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> compatibility which will all be solved, at the framework level, not |
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> the |
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> base distro level, to the extent possible. Folks are now running a |
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> myriad of windows OS versions on linux (&clusters), so I have just |
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> read |
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> about a few days ago. So I'm proposing and working on gentoo |
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> heterogeneous cluster where one can partition part to be for systemd |
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> stuffage, part to be HPC, part to be extraordinarily secure, part to |
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> be |
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> aligned with a particularly commercial linux distro, and many other |
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> differing needs based frameworks. |
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> |
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> |
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> The minimal (lowest level) should be clear of all of those distro |
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> encumbrances. CoreOS is taking this approach, as their bare metal |
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> bootstrapping occurs completely and well before systemd or any other |
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> PID1 schema is invoked or becomes a defacto requirement. Gentoo is |
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> all |
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> about freedom, right? |
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> |
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> |
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> hth, |
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> James |
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> |
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|
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Dear James, |
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can you please stop totally drifting off topic and rambling about stuff |
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that is not relevant for the discussion at hand? We started at IUSE |
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defaults and you end with unikernels and HPC. Please stop the rambling. |
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|
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hth, |
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David |