Re: [gentoo-dev] Speaking of new kernels being added to the tree

[Jason Stubbs]

On Sunday 05 October 2003 14:22, Kevyn Shortell wrote:
> > I think the main point to the discussion is new users. I, too, have never
> > used genkernel so don't know how viable the idea of using it in its
> > current state would be. Nor am I admonishing that it should be the "only
> > way to go". However, everything in Gentoo is configured, compiled and
> > installed through the single emerge command. It would make most sense to
> > me to choose what classes of drivers/functionality I wanted through USE
> > flags and then do post-installation configuration through
> > /etc/modules.autoload*. Can anyone say why the kernel is special and
> > should be done differently? - other than if it ain't broke don't fix it!
>
> Because the kernel is much more than that. Linux as a whole has never
> setup kernel building for new users, and probably never will. You
> actually need to know a lot about your hardware to build an optimized
> kernel for it.

I'm not talking about a fully-optimized kernel. I'm talking about for the "new 
user" who is competent enough to reach building a kernel but is at a loss 
once reaching that point in an installation.

> To put into basic perspective, if you want to have USE flags for kernel
> building, would you know to use something like:
>
> USE="pnp network pci radeon 16550 tulip ohci ps2 ipv4 ext3 idecd ata100
> dma
>
> The list goes on and on. There are somethings as a user your going to
> just have to decide to learn how to do. If not you can always use the rh
> sources, and thier config to have a kernel that will boot almost
> anything. Using use flags as you suggested, still requires you to know a
> lot about your hardware, which wouldn't help you from using the current
> kernel configuration system, which is not gentoo specific.

To take your example, I would prefer something like:

USE="network 3daccel usb cdrom"

Comparing to your example, what I'm suggesting as a simple possibility is:
"network" = "network" + "tulip" + "ipv4"
"3daccel" = "radeon" (+ "i810", etc)
"usb" = "ohci" (+ "uhci" + "ehci", etc)
"cdrom" = "idecd" (+ "idescsi", etc)

"comm", "ps2", "usb", "pnp", "pci", "ext3" & "ata100" would all be installed 
by default as they don't add any negatives other than a small amount of 
memory usage or wasted time attempting to load modules.

A while a go there was one email to -user asking what he was doing wrong when 
genkernel was taking several hours. The simple reason was that it was 
compiling almost everything. I'm simply offering a solution where it is easy 
for a user to be pretty sure a compiled kernel will operate all his/her 
hardware (as far as the kernel is capable) without spending time building all 
drivers for some class of device that isn't in the system.

> > I'm with almost all other people in that it would not be a high priority
> > for some time to come. On the other hand, I'm against people who are
> > putting forward arguments that the kernel is somehow special. Almost
> > every other package is installed with extra cruft so that can't be used
> > as an excuse. Gentoo is about making things easier for everyone which
> > means safe defaults and easily accessible complete customisation, so
> > Luke-Jr's idea at least deserves consideration rather than instant
> > dismissal.
>
> I don't think anyone has an argument with making things easier, but we
> shouldn't make things easier for new users to the detriment of making
> things more difficult for everyone else. There is a point where Gentoo
> just might be more advanced than a new user is skill wise, and accept
> that.

Nobody's talking about making things harder for everyone else. "emerge 
linux-gentoo-src" as Luke-Jr suggested is detrimentally difficult when 
compared to "emerge gentoo-sources" is it? 2 extra keystrokes?! There are 
also many people saying that Gentoo might just be too hard for lusers. Why 
then was genkernel created in the first place?

Jason

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