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On Wednesday 19 May 2004 12:30, foser wrote: |
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> The second time you mention choice. I guess we know what Gentoo is about |
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> by now, the 'choice' argument is too often used just to end criticism. |
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If people are arguing against additional choice, then I guess that at least |
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some devs don't get that this is an important part of Gentoo. |
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> Choice is an illusion, |
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Try telling that to people using <insert distro here> who don't have that |
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choice. |
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> if you there's too much choice it is no use to |
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> anyone anymore, because nobody really knows what it is all about. |
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Agreed. So is the problem choice itself, or the tools we use to deliver that |
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choice to our users? |
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> This |
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> is already the case with the loads of USE flags/portage options/etc. we |
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> have. Gentoo shouldn't be about choice for the sake of it, it should be |
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> about simplicity/managability : stuff that works. It's a trade-off. |
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Where do we have choice for the sake of it? |
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Reducing choice does not always increase simplicity. |
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> I wasn't too happy with the introducation of local USE flags for just |
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> the reasons that are becoming a problem now. Too much flags, everybody |
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> adds them at will without good reasons. |
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USE flags allow users to switch on (and off I guess) optional settings. |
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What would you prefer? |
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a) hardened-php patch not available at all in Gentoo |
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b) hardened-php patch always included |
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Because those are the only choices you are leaving. |
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> We used to just say to people |
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> who wanted a specific (rare) set-up that they could easily edit the |
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> ebuild themselves to their need, |
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Thank god we don't do that any more! I'm all for educating our users in the |
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ways of UNIX-like systems, but perhaps that is raising the bar too high. |
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> but nowadays it seems we have to hold |
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> hands all the time and add complexity for nothing. |
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I don't think USE flags are hand-holding. The principle - that a Gentoo dev |
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spends a little time working out how to safely make an optional feature |
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available - scales far better than expecting all of our users to try and |
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solve the same problem for themselves all the time. |
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> That's good for |
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> nobody really. |
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I agree that adding complexity is not good. |
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> The installation manual used to be like 5 pages, by now |
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> it's a book of it's own per arch. I don't think that's a good thing and |
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> we should be really, really careful about what we can do to stop this |
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> movement. |
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The installation manual used to cover just one architecture. |
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I'm sure our users appreciate the vast improvements that the handbook |
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contributors have delivered since those early days. |
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> You have the choice. The real power is the easy way in which you can |
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> adapt it to your needs and the simplicity of doing so. |
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Which is exactly what USE flags currently provide - until someone figures out |
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a better way to deliver the same amount of choice. |
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> Huge loads of nobody-ever-uses them options don't help one bit. |
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Just because you don't use them, don't assume that no-one else finds them |
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useful. |
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> You should keep it basic for exactly the reason that anyone can adapt |
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> it easily. Adding layers of complexity leads to a system that needs |
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> time & effort to get into : you lose what you want, you lose the true |
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> power. |
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The simplicity has to be at the point of use. The major point of use for our |
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users is the 'emerge' command. If USE flags are too complicated, why not |
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suggest something better? I'm not sure that eliminating choice is something |
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better. |
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> The defaults should be good enough, all the extra stuff is mostly cruft |
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> in 99.9% of the cases. |
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I agree that the defaults should at least be sensible. But I don't agree that |
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the optional stuff is cruft. You may not need some of these options, but |
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there are users out there who are. |
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As long as there are developers willing to maintain these optional features, |
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why is offering choice (as a principle) wrong? |
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> That cruft therefore isn't necessary in the distro, keeping the |
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> playing field clean and open. |
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I'm *soooo* glad that everyone doesn't agree with that statement. |
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You want to take a distribution that provides a tonne of flexibility - more |
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than any of the competition - and see all that flexibility removed from it? |
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Is that really your position? |
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> We're creating tools to be able to work with our tools, thats in indication |
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> of going the wrong way. |
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Then what is the right way to deliver the richness that is Gentoo *without* |
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losing the flexibility that others like (even if you don't seem to)? |
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I guess I've mentioned choice a lot more than twice by now :) |
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Best regards, |
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Stu |
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-- |
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Stuart Herbert stuart@g.o |
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Gentoo Developer http://www.gentoo.org/ |
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http://stu.gnqs.org/diary/ |
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|
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GnuPG key id# F9AFC57C available from http://pgp.mit.edu |
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Key fingerprint = 31FB 50D4 1F88 E227 F319 C549 0C2F 80BA F9AF C57C |
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