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Hi Mark, |
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|
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On 2/27/06, Mark Loeser <halcy0n@g.o> wrote: |
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> Your change seems to imply that the QA team must wait for the council's |
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> okay to go forth and fix the package, rather the QA team able to act on |
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> its own. If that is the case, I don't see how we would ever be able to |
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> get things done when someone disagrees with us. |
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|
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In the event of a disagreement, that's exactly what I'm asking for. |
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Hopefully, disagreements will be rare. But, when they do arise, and |
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it is not an emergency, I see no reason why the QA team needs the |
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ability to force its point of view onto others. |
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|
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> Again, then we are going to get into the argument of the definition of |
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> an emergency and never be able to get anything done. We really hope |
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> problems never come down to this, which is why we left it worded this |
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> way. |
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|
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Me too. But it will, sooner or later, and when something isn't an |
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emergency, there's no reason why a change cannot wait until the |
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dispute has been resolved. |
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|
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I have no desire to stop the QA team being able to act in an |
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emergency. It's in all our interests for action to be taken in an |
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emergency. |
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|
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> > The QA team has no monopoly on what is right or wrong in Gentoo, and |
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> > neither do package maintainers. If there is a disagreement that leads |
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> > to an appeal, the onus should be on the QA team to have to present their |
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> > case to the council, as they are the ones pushing for change. |
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> |
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> Again, this is taking away any power that the QA team might have |
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|
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I find that an interesting statement. The only power my proposals |
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remove is to stop you bullying people by insisting you are always |
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right before a peer review has happened. If there is a genuine QA |
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problem, and you can't convince the developer in question of that, |
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there's still a fair process that allows you to enforce when concensus |
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has failed. |
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|
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Without these safeguards, my feeling is that the QA team is free to |
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enforce without concensus at all times. I don't believe that is in |
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the best interests of Gentoo, and is a significant shift in the way we |
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govern ourselves. |
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|
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I don't see any compelling reason for the QA team to be judge, jury |
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and executioner, with the council acting as a post-execution appeals |
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panel. Wasn't devrel broken up into separate investigation and |
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enforcement teams over these very same concerns, raised by a member of |
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the QA team? |
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|
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> This is not quantifiable at all and will just get us into arguments with |
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> people that disagree with us that there is a problem present. |
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|
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If you mean that it creates grey areas where the output of automated |
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tools cannot always be right, I agree. If you're saying that it's |
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beyond your capacity as human beings to weigh up the merits of an |
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argument on more than just narrowly-defined technical facts, then are |
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you best placed to be making the decision in the first place? |
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|
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If a policy is to be supportable and implementable, it has to be |
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reasonable, and it has to be managed by reasonable people. I feel |
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that what you're asking for, on this point, is more dogmatic than |
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reasonable. |
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|
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Case in point. I've presented to you that, after two and a half |
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years, the situation that has sparked this debate off hasn't affected |
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users. I've explained that it is a third scenario, and that it is |
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different to the two (legitimate) scenarios that you've been busy |
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getting fixed. From where I'm sat, it would seem reasonable to accept |
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that, although this is a problem when looked at purely from a |
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technical point of view, this scenario isn't causing problems at this |
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time, and we could all move on to dealing with more important matters. |
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If there was a real problem, there would be enough evidence after two |
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and a half years for you to show me, and that would convince me (and |
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any other reasonable person) that I was wrong, and that action was |
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worth taking. |
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|
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You haven't presented that evidence, or if you have, I haven't seen it |
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since getting up this morning. |
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|
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Instead, we have a proposed QA policy that says "we're always right, |
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and when we're not, we still get our way until you convince the |
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council to let you back out the changes we demand." I think that's |
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unreasonable. That's why I oppose this point. To me, it smacks of |
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wanting to have your own way whether you're right or not. I can't |
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support that. |
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|
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> Again, this bogs us down in useless process if someone wants to argue a |
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> change that clearly breaks things, but isn't documented. It is |
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> impossible to document every single thing that is a problem, and we are |
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> asking for some freedom to be able to work on issues that fall under QA. |
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|
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As already mentioned, if it's not documented, how on earth do you |
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expect to raise the general quality of the QA done by each and every |
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developer? How do you expect to be able to consistently enforce your |
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own QA standards? |
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|
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If it's not documented, then you're left with making it up as you go |
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along. That's in no-one's interest. |
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|
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This comes back to my point about the QA team needing to be an |
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educational role first and foremost. |
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|
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> So the Portage team will have to agree with us on every single problem |
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> that is a QA issue? This seems like something we can leave alone until |
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> it doesn't work, at which point we bring it before the council to figure |
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> out how we can best handle this situation. Saying that another team |
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> must approve all QA checks just seems silly. |
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|
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I'm asserting that it isn't working. Case in point. Brian, as |
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co-lead of the Portage team, has said that we won't be adding |
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DEST_PREFIX to Portage. If the Portage team won't agree with your |
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interpretation of what is or isn't a valid QA check, why should you |
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have the right to go ahead anyway and enforce that check on the |
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package maintainers? |
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|
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It's not silly. What do you have to fear about having your proposed |
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QA standards backed by key teams? If your arguments have merit, they |
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will be supported. |
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|
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What I think is silly is the QA team claiming for itself the power to |
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enforce standards just on their say so. |
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|
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> All of this seems to assume that the QA team is going to abuse its |
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> power. So far we have had very few problems when we ask people to |
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> fix issues that we have found for their packages. Is this going to |
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> always be true? No, and someone needs to be able to get problems fixed |
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> instead of just leaving things the way they are, and we want to fill |
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> that role. |
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|
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I think you're already abusing that power, by calling for a package to |
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be removed when it's causing no trouble to anyone, and when the |
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workarounds create a worse user experience than what is already there. |
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When the developer in question declines to remove the package, your |
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response is a proposed QA mandate that is unbalanced. |
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|
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Genuine problems need to be fixed. My proposals do not stop you from |
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doing that. They also ensure that we have a balanced QA approach that |
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genuinely serves the needs of the project. |
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|
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> > I'd like to see the QA team's primary role stated as "educational" |
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> > first, then watchdog, then intervener in that order (emergencies |
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> > not-withstanding). |
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> |
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> Which is what we plan on doing, and have been doing so far. |
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|
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Walk the talk. Create the educational material. |
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|
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> We are working on a document, and hope to document all of the problems |
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> and why they are problems. We don't plan on saying something is just |
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> wrong and not give an explanation. |
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|
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:) |
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|
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Best regards, |
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Stu |
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-- |
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|
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-- |
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