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Kent Fredric posted on Sat, 23 Dec 2017 10:25:51 +1300 as excerpted: |
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> On Thu, 21 Dec 2017 12:25:11 -0600 William Hubbs <williamh@g.o> |
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> wrote: |
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> |
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>> I think there's some confusion here. I'm not trying to change the bar |
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>> for ~arch, just trying to understand what that bar is supposed to be. |
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> |
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> The bar for ~arch is "end users should have reasonable expectations that |
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> it mostly works for most purposes, especially those that can be |
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> trivially checked for by its maintainer" |
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> |
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> ~arch will however be imperfect, and there will be issues from time to |
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> time. |
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> |
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> However, the goal is that those issues are not the "easy to find and |
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> obvious" kind, but the subtle and hard to stumble into. |
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> |
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> And I see that as why we have the time interval: Because it gives a good |
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> opportunity for actual real world usage patterns to discover the sorts |
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> of problems that you can't discover by actively looking for them, |
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> the rumsfeldian "unknown unknowns". |
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> |
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> Because realistically speaking, ~arch is the stable of tomorrow. |
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> |
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> The goal is for it to be stable today. |
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> |
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> And when it proves itself ready to be the stable of today, it becomes |
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> the stable of today. |
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|
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Very well said. =:^) |
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I'd simply add a couple points, from a slightly different angle. They're |
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arguably obvious (at least to devs), but equally arguably should be |
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explicitly stated to avoid doubt, and certainly clarified things for me |
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back in 2004 when I was a new gentooer trying to figure all this stuff |
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out. |
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|
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* Because ~arch is intended to be (as the above says) "the stable of |
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tomorrow", with few exceptions it should consist of packages upstream |
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already considers stable releases. As such, the "testing" implied by |
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~arch is /Gentoo's/ testing, that is, testing of the ebuild and how it |
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interacts with eclasses, profiles and the rest of the Gentoo tree in |
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general, /not/ upstream testing. |
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|
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* The primary exception to the the general rule above is for packages |
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where Gentoo /is/ upstream, such that the most obvious method of testing |
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the stability of the release (by Gentoo devs functioning as upstream) is |
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by releasing it to ~arch, which in this case /is/ upstream's testing. |
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|
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That isn't to say that where Gentoo is upstream ~arch should be alpha |
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quality; the same "obvious bugs should have already been fixed" applies. |
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It simply means the quality of ~arch for Gentoo-as-upstream packages may |
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be experientially somewhat different, perhaps a bit lower, because in |
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that case ~arch is functioning as upstream's testing as well as testing |
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of the Gentoo packaging. |
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|
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This is actually a big reason why I ended up running live-git openrc back |
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when I was running it. Gentoo effectively being upstream and ~arch thus |
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being upstream testing, there were occasional breakages with ~arch openrc |
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packages, and as a normal ~arch user I found it far easier to trace them |
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down when I had full access to the git logs and commit history, as well |
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as a finer grain "multiple pre-release snapshots (effectively a snapshot |
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each time I upstated), less territory to bisect" testing strategy. |
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|
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For portage, by contrast, I didn't end up running live-git, because each |
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release lists the bugs fixed and I can and do at least review their one- |
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line summaries every time I update. Between that and following the |
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patches as they're posted for review in portage-dev (so the release-time |
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bug list is primarily review), I'm effectively following live-git plus |
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reviews anyway, but with the releases as my chosen snapshot frequency. |
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|
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-- |
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Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. |
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"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- |
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and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman |