Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to "normal" users

[Michael Mol]

On 05/20/2013 11:34 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 3:03 AM, Daniel Campbell <dlcampbell@×××.com>
> wrote:

[snip]

>> That's missing the point. If you don't run systemd, having unit
>> files is pointless. Thankfully there's INSTALL_MASK and whatnot,
>> but that seems like a hack instead of something more robust. Why
>> include systemd unit files (by default, with no systemd USE flag,
>> thanks to the council...) on a system that's not using it? 154
>> files isn't negligible unless you're flippant with your system and
>>  don't care about bloat. Unused software sitting around *is* a
>> waste of disk-space.
>
> Unit files are not software; they are data.

That's like saying "shell scripts are not software, they are data". Unit
files, semantically and collectively, are a system-behavior-defining set
of interpreted modules written in a declarative language. In fact,
that's what makes them even remotely appealing, on comparison to
shell-based init scripts; they make declarations of requirements, the
"what", and leave it to the system resolver to work out the "how".

(It's from this perspective that I like the idea of using unit files as
a point of origin for *generating* init configurations like systemv,
openrc or runit scripts. You'd be compiling the init script for the
target init system, and your result should be more robust for it.)

>
> And I believe you are the one missing the point. I don't run OpenRC;
>  I don't need no files in /etc/init.d. But you don't see me (nor any
>  other systemd user) complaining about pointless scripts in
> /etc/init.d. I just put /etc/init.d in INSTALL_MASK and go on with
> my life.
>
> Non-systemd users should do the same for files under
> /usr/lib/systemd, if they really are that worried about systemd
> "infecting" their systems. Complaining about a council-decided policy
> (and, I believe, backed up by the developers that matter, including
> the OpenRC maintainers) is just beating on a dead horse.

The push to keep USE flags specific to enabling and disabling program
features seems weird to me; the semantics of USE flags seem valuable for
a great deal more than that.

>
> Get over it.
>
>> Some people (like myself) came to Gentoo to avoid putting systemd
>> on their systems and to make use of the great choice that Gentoo
>> allows. This push to make systemd a "first level citizen" or
>> whatever reeks of marketing.
>
> If Gentoo is about choice, then systemd is one of those choices.

This I take no issue with.

> And systemd will become a first class citizen inside Gentoo, like it
>  or not.

...

> Support for it has been getting better and better, and more and more
> Gentoo users are running with systemd.

And users are switching to eudev and mdev as well. Personally, I think
heterogeneity is a good thing...That's a huge part of why I like Gentoo;
it's a crucible for open-source software that tends to bring breakages
in edge-case (but theoretically "supported") configurations to upstream
attention.

>
> If  some fundamentalists

...

> users don't want even one file in their systems with "systemd" on
> their paths, they can install eudev/mdev, put the necessary
> directories in INSTALL_MASK, and do the extra work. If some other
> fundamentalists users (like myself) don't want even one OpenRC
> related file on our systems, we can create an overlay to remove the
> dependency of baselayout on OpenRC, put /etc/init.d in INSTALL_MASK,
> and do the extra work.
>
> Neither case covers the average systemd/OpenRC user, who doesn't
> care about a few scattered files in /etc/init.d nor /usr/lib/systemd,
> and just want to run her machine with the init system of her choice.
> If Gentoo is really about choice.

It is, and it should be.

>
>> If there is desire among users for unit files, they can contact
>> upstream or maintain their own set of unit files. It's not like
>> they're hard to write.
>
> So, Gentoo is about choice, but only for the choices you agree with.
>  Great.

Nobody says the devs must do whatever the users demand of them; the devs
are unpaid.

The best arguments in this thread, to my eye, have been to encourage
devs to accept user-contributed unit files.

As users, you and I can't force devs to do anything. But we can always
pull up our sleeves and dig in ourselves.