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Alec Warner <antarus@g.o> said: |
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> Ryan Phillips wrote: |
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> > This is a follow up to Mark's (halcy0n's) thread regarding QA Policies and |
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> > seemant's letter on herds, teams, and projects. |
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> > |
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> > I believe the way Gentoo is doing things is broken. There I have said it. The |
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> > entire project has reached a level of being too political and trying to solve |
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> > certain problems in the wrong way. |
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> > |
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> > Some of these problems are intermixed. Please consider them starting points |
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> > for discussion. |
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> > |
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> > __Problem: Developer Growth__ |
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> > |
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> > I find that developer growth as being a problem. Adding a developer to gentoo |
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> > should be as easy as 1. has the user contributed numerous (~5+) patches that |
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> > helps the project move forward. If yes, then commit access should be given. |
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> > Adding a developer is usually quite a chore. There are numerous reasons why |
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> > this is a problem: having a live tree, taking a test, and not defining within |
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> > policy when a person could possibly get commit access. |
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> > |
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> > All these reasons leave the project stagnant and lacking developers. |
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> > |
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> > Why do people have to take a test? Is it to make sure they won't break the |
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> > tree? If it is, then the solution of a test is wrong. We do want to make sure |
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> > our developers understand gentoo, but I argue that the bugtracker is all we |
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> > need. As long as a person is adding value to gentoo and they have "proven" |
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> > themselves, then they *should* have commit access. |
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> > |
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> > Perhaps its because of a live tree... |
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> > |
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> |
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> I am relatively new, I lurked for quite some time on IRC ( a yearish ) |
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> before finally becoming a dev, and the quiz was not particularly |
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> difficult, and the questions I didn't know, I asked my Mentor about. I |
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> think Mentors in general don't do a very good job ( not complaining |
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> about mine, mind, just in general ). I think in some cases, people are |
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> afraid to ask questions. |
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> |
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> We have the madly successful AT project, and a new Herd Tester project |
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> is in the works. I find both of these to be very good ideas and have |
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> aided in developer growth. |
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> |
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> As for your suggestion, with a "Live Tree" you cannot give random users |
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> who contribute "5 patches" commit access. Commiting comes with it an |
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> inherit responsibility. The following is an example only: |
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> |
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|
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Ok, so maybe not 5 patches commit access.. How about an active |
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contributor for 6 months. I am throwing out ideas. |
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|
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> I can go in right now and commit something that destroys anyone's box |
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> not running SElinux, just bump portage and then watch anyone that uses |
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> the new version destroy their machine. Part of this involves having a |
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> reputation based system. IMHO this is part of our own tree security. |
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> I have worked hard in the community to become a developer, and throwing |
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> that all away to ruin some boxes is silly. Sure once my changes are |
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> found they can be revert and a new portage thrown into the tree, but how |
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> many boxes were ruined first? What if my commit was unintentional? |
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|
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So this is a problem with having a live tree. |
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|
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> > __Problem: Live Tree__ |
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> > |
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> > Having a live tree requires people to be perfect. People are not perfect and |
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> > requiring it is ridiculous. I love having commits in my local tree within the |
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> > hour, but having a stable and unstable branch makes a lot of sense. |
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> > |
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> > CVS doesn't do branching nor tags very well... |
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> |
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> More details on how Branches and Tags solve the Live Tree problem would |
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> be good. |
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|
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We could have a trunk/ and stable/ branch. The stable branch gets |
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exported to the rsync mirrors. Trunk/ is where we do the changes, |
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then merge to stable/ the changes we want. Should be pretty simple. |
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|
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> > |
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> > __Problem: QA Policies__ |
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> > |
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> > http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/37544 |
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> > |
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> > It seems that the QA Policies are a product of a Live Tree, and going partially |
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> > non-live would solve the problems listed. |
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> > |
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> > Everyone here is on the same team. There will be some breakages in the tree |
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> > and those can be dealt with. Like Seemant [1] said, herds are just groups of |
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> > like *packages*. The QA Policy is wrong when it says cross-team assistance; we |
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> > are all on the *same* team. The tree should naturally work. If it doesn't |
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> > then that is a bug for all of us. |
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> > |
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> > Conflict resolution should not be a subproject. It should *not* exist at all. |
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> > Rules need to be in place to avoid conflict. Having some sort of voting |
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> > structure for all the developers (this doesn't mean requiring everyone to vote) |
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> > and not just the council or devrel makes a lot of sense for most things. If I |
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> > don't like how someone is acting within the project there should be a vote and |
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> > then see if that person is kicked out. No trial, no anything besides a vote. |
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> > And if I lose I have to deal with it. Either stay with the project, or find |
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> > something else. This solution just works. |
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> |
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> How many people are going to actively vote? What keeps "Me n' my |
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> Posse'" from just voting out random people we hate; assuming my Posse' |
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> is large enough to do so? |
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|
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Thats fine. I replied to Alec's email about this. |
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|
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We have to trust eachother to do the right thing. |
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|
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> > |
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> > Gentoo should be a fun environment. The previous paragraph should be taken as |
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> > a last resort. |
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> > |
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> > __Problem: GLEPs__ |
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> > |
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> > I dislike GLEPs. Usually they sit on the website for a long long time not |
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> > doing anything. My vote (+1) is get rid of gleps and do everything by email |
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> > and a vote by the developers. AFAIK, the board votes on the GLEPs. Bad Idea. |
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> > It stifles things from getting done, and there is no ownership of who is going |
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> > to implement the idea. |
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> > |
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> > A new idea proposal should be mailed to a mailinglist (-innovation?) with |
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> > details of timeline to completion, impact, and who is doing the implementation. |
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> > If it sounds like a good one, then there is a vote and things proceed. I like |
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> > progress. |
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> |
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> Uhhh Your E-mail basically states what a GLEP is, aside from the fact |
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> that it's on the web instead of being done via E-mail. The problem we |
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> currently have is: |
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> |
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> A) Many of the GLEPS require someone to do the work. |
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> B) No one has volunteered. |
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> |
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> Can you address these problems? |
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|
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The GLEPs first have to get passed by the council. Wrong order of |
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operations. It shouldn't be their job; it's ours. |
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|
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> > |
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> > __Problem: Voting__ |
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> > |
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> > Gentoo has over 200 developers. People are generally against the voting idea, |
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> > but I'm not sure why. I think voting should work like this: if 30 developers |
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> > (or someother specified number) vote yes to an idea then that idea passes. It |
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> > doesn't require everyone to vote, be at home, be on the computer, and not be on |
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> > vacation. |
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> > |
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> > The Apache Foundation already has a decent page regarding this: |
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> > http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html |
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> > |
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> > The Apache Foundation has over 1300 developers; they must be doing something |
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> > right. |
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> > |
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> > If someone misses a vote, too bad. You weren't there and progress has been |
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> > made. I equate this to leaving on vacation from work. My input is missed |
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> > while away, but decisions have been made in my absence. |
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> |
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> I could do with a shorter voting period where we vote on more things. |
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> I'd like to see at least a few issues voted on at least to see how many |
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> people actually show up and vote. |
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|
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It's not whether people vote. They don't have to. Apache calls this |
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lazy consensus. |
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|
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-ryan |