Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Splitting developer-oriented and expert user mailing lists

[R0b0t1]

On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Michał Górny <mgorny@g.o> wrote:
> W dniu nie, 03.12.2017 o godzinie 23∶59 -0600, użytkownik R0b0t1
> napisał:
>> As noted, there is one: analyzing the actions of those who are being
>> "attacked" to see why people are bothering to do it in the first
>> place. I sincerely doubt the offensive parties are doing what they are
>> doing without cause.
>
> Most of the affected developers are perfectly aware of the purpose of
> those attacks. If there was anything to be done to resolve the situation
> peacefully, we'd have done it long time ago. However, we can't and are
> not going to yield to people's unfounded demands based purely
> on the pressure inflicted by their misbehavior.
>

You are presupposing they are attacks. If they are public, and on
gentoo-dev, then why would you consider them attacks? Are you the only
person who acts with reason or purpose? How do you determine someone
else is not acting with those things?

> I believe this is as far as I can answer you. Going beyond that goes
> into public judgment of private issues which is unacceptable on this
> mailing list.
>

You have now made the issue public by asking that the information be
acted on. If you can not present it publicly, then do not ask anyone
to act on it, and do not hold people to decisions or outcomes made
using the information.

>> But no, the Gentoo developers are always above reproach.
>
> This remark is highly inappropriate.
>

Multiple times I have had polite requests for some explanation of
actions be ignored. In a few of them I can cite behavior that
contradicts itself. What conclusion is left to me save that certain
developers revel in being petty tyrants?

>> > I'm sorry but the purpose of this thread is not to convince you that
>> > the problems exist. If you haven't experienced them already, then it
>> > would be polite of you to either accept them as a fact, or do some
>> > research yourself.
>> >
>>
>> Your job is not to convince me, personally, but the future reader of
>> this list. If you have given up on doing so then you have admitted
>> that you do not want to be held accountable for your actions because
>> you do not feel you need to explain why you are doing what you are
>> doing.
>
> It is quite ironic that you worry about a 'future reader' needing to be
> convinced in this past post (presuming you have some infinite knowledge
> of what kind of details would a 'future reader' consider satisfying)
> and at the same time you clearly reject to search for any past posts
> on the topic.
>

Most people consider evidence and fact-based reasoning satisfying. You
can dispute this if you wish, but I'm not sure how far you will be
able to take it.

> Also, I should point out that you don't get to tell me what my job is.
> If you believe this thread should contain such data, please collect it
> yourself in your own time and include it in a reply. However, I should
> point out that you should respect all the rules we're talking about.
> I'd rather spend the time doing something that is of much greater
> importance of Gentoo users than some potential decision that will
> probably no longer be remembered in 12 months, except in snarky
> comments.
>

If you do not want to convince people you are right, eventually you
will have to accept a complete lack of credibility.

I do not have such information and now I have learned you are actively
keeping it from me and from everyone else who may be trying to form an
opinion on this matter.

>> > I understand that you might want to know things. However, it is
>> > generally impolite if someone 'comes late to the party' and starts
>> > shouting questions that the existing participants know answers to
>> > already. This is distorting to the conversation at hand.
>> >
>>
>> I am not shouting. I am politely, but pointedly, asking questions that
>> you ostensibly should already have the answer to. If you do not have
>> the answer, then I feel it is clear to future readers of the list that
>> you are making decisions for nonsensical reasons.
>
> I should point out that your personal attacks are also unacceptable.
> If you disagree with the proposal, then please focus on discussing facts
> and not trying to prove your opponent's incompetence.
>

I regret that you see it as a personal attack, but I am simply trying
to tell you how I expect most people will view the situation. You are
asserting you are right with no evidence. No one has any reason to
believe you.

>> > People's private issues are not topic of this mailing list. It is
>> > generally impolite and unprofessional to discuss them publicly. Please
>> > don't do that.
>> >
>>
>> If the messages are being posted to gentoo-dev then I don't see why
>> you consider the issue private. At least one party intends it to be
>> public, probably because it's not a personal attack and is related to
>> Gentoo.
>
> One side being unprofessional does not excuse the other from being so.
> It only causes very unfair 'community judgment' where community judges
> based on abusive facts of one side where the other side is unable to
> provide counter-arguments without violating the privacy rules.
>

"Unfair community judgement" is using secret evidence to dictate your actions.

Respectfully,
     R0b0t1