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Alec Warner posted on Mon, 12 Mar 2012 15:53:58 -0700 as excerpted: |
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> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 3:37 PM, Kent Fredric <kentfredric@×××××.com> |
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> wrote: |
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>> On 13 March 2012 11:02, Mike Gilbert <floppym@g.o> wrote: |
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>>>> The previous council's decision does not prevent this same glep from |
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>>>> going to the council again (decisions are not forever.) [...] |
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>>>> Having the full notes would be helpful in determining why |
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>>>> it was turned down back then; I'm sure a copy of the notes exist. |
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>>> |
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>>> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/ |
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>>> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/meeting-logs/20100823.txt |
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>>> |
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>>> |
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>> Well that was insightful. As suspected,, there was a lot of people |
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>> saying "Yeaahh, I don't like it", and concluding there were problems |
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>> with it, but the actual technical issues still haven't been presented |
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>> to us. |
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|
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>> Can somebody present a real ( or even theoretical ) problem that could |
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>> arise from having the EAPI in the filename that isn't some abstract |
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>> hand-waving? |
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|
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> In general there was the 'I don't like it crowd (I was one of these, I |
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> care less these days ;p)' |
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> There was the 'it is Ciaran crowd.' This concept is difficult to |
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> describe without a fair bit of context in how the community was being |
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> run at the time. |
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|
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Sometimes I wonder at how much more pleasant the dev-list in particular |
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is these days. It's as if people grew up and learned how to have a |
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reasonable discussion. Meanwhile, I doubt anyone who survived those days |
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wants to relive them, for sure! So let's just agree not to kick that |
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sleeping dog any more than we already have, lest he wake up! The posts |
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are after all archived for those newbies who wish to see for themselves |
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what the veterans of the era would rather leave well enough alone. |
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|
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> None of the above reasons are what I would term 'technical merits.' |
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> However now (as then) not all decisions are made on their technical |
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> merits. We have adopted (and continue to adopt) solutions that are |
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> imperfect, technically silly, or otherwise lots of work because they |
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> meet some goal we are trying to accomplish. I don't think Gentoo is |
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> alone in this aspect of management. |
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|
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IMO the real reason for the g55 "no" back then, was that whatever the |
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technical merits of the various solutions were, the discussion was simply |
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too politically and interpersonally poisoned to handle in any reasonable |
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way. Gentoo lost some good folks around that time, and if the council |
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had moved forward with ANY of the more forward looking proposals, |
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including g55 but not limited to it, it would have very likely triggered |
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a split of gentoo into at least two, likely three or four different |
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factions, and gentoo as we know it would have gone the way that the zynot |
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fork went... Honestly, as bad as things were at the time and knowing |
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that there ARE unstable folks like Hans Reiser around in the FLOSS |
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community, I wouldn't have been /that/ surprised if someone really DID |
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take it too far. Yes, things were THAT bad! |
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|
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Tho it's worth noting that the 2010 date of the log above was, I think, |
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after the worst of it was over, but it was still too poisoned to deal |
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with in any reasonably sane way. |
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|
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Luckily, the council had the wisdom to more or less punt, voting down g55 |
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AND the other discussed solutions, basically sticking with what we had, |
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with minor tweaks, until things calmed down. It is my opinion that they |
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really did very possibly prevented the rather bad end of gentoo by doing |
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so. But they did leave the door open, calling for further study of the |
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issues. |
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|
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When I saw this thread start, I wondered if enough time had passed... |
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|
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|
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The most encouraging thing about this current discussion for me as a list |
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veteran of that era, is that despite all the posts so far, the debate has |
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remained reasonably civil. People are debating hard for their |
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viewpoints, but nobody's crossing the line and making it personal as was |
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the unfortunate norm back then, and people approaching the line are |
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quickly nudged back away from it. |
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|
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I honestly don't know if it's something that can be reasonably dealt |
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with, yet. I honestly don't know how pressing is the need to deal with |
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it /now/ vs perhaps punting it a couple more years. |
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|
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Either way, the simple fact that we're discussing it as sane humans |
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instead of as a pack of wild dogs, viciously snarling and snapping at |
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each other, is progress. |
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|
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For the record, I agree with someone else, sorry I don't remember who, |
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that said it seems that a lot of folks seem to want glep55 now, just not |
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by that name. Ultimately, I believe at least the one-shot variant, |
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possibly with additional later shots but with each one well debated on |
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its own merits to be SURE about it before moving forward (IOW, not an |
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open-ended forever increasing series), with intermediate updates keeping |
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the same filename structure in between, is about the best choice |
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available. |
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|
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But whether now's the appropriate time for that one-shot, and its |
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details, I don't know. At least our discussion is on sane terms, these |
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days, something I don't believe could be honestly stated, before, and for |
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that reason, I 100% agree with the council's rejection of it back then. |
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|
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|
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|
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Meanwhile, for issues such as this, where we'll be living with the |
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decision for some time to come, and especially where it has been going on |
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for years, so another year isn't going to be life or death, I have an |
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idea. |
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|
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What about, for such issues, requiring, in effect, that two successive |
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councils approve it, with possibly a 5/7 or even 6/7 override. If the |
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majority is that strong, it's unlikely that a new council would see it |
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differently anyway. If not, conditionally approve a decision, with the |
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condition that the next year's council must also approve it. |
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|
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Between the two approvals, any remaining implementation details can be |
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worked out, and for decisions such as one affecting future EAPIs like |
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this one does, implementation and testing can go into the PMs and if |
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desired/necessary, the alternate tree prepared, but it can't roll-out |
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"live" on the main gentoo tree (and any implementing overlays do so at a |
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known and calculated risk of having to roll-back) until the second |
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council approves the change as well. And the first council's approval |
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must be, say, a minimum of three months before council turnover. No |
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hasty post-election lame-duck sessions ramming stuff thru so the new |
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council can in just weeks finalize things, tho of course the supermajority |
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override still could, when really seen to be necessary by /that/ many |
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council members. |
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|
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That way, devs get to vote for a new council in the middle, and if they |
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really dislike an action, they can simply vote in an opposing council. |
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|
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Obviously, this only works for multi-year projects with multi-year |
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implications, not so well for, say, appeals to council of a forced |
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retirement or the like, but it seems to me that such a mechanism would |
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guard quite well against one council voting something thru with a slim |
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majority that's reverted the next year, for things with the long-term |
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implications something like this obviously has. |
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|
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Based on my reading of the logs, that's actually been a council concern a |
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time or two, for at least a couple members. Formally having the two- |
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successive-councils option for the biggest and longest term issues would |
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remove that concern and allow the initial council to vote on the merits |
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as they saw them, and a second council will have then certainly taken |
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positions (even if it's an official "no position" position) on the issue, |
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either by being reelected after the first vote or by statement, so can |
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vote in confidence knowing that the larger gentoo developer pool backs |
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them in their vote. |
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|
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-- |
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Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. |
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"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- |
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and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman |