Gentoo Archives: gentoo-dev

From: foser <foser@g.o>
To: gentoo-dev@l.g.o
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-web-user] Hardened PHP now in Gentoo]
Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 17:00:08
Message-Id: 1085072425.9668.74.camel@rivendell
In Reply to: [Fwd: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-web-user] Hardened PHP now in Gentoo] by Joseph Booker
1 On Thu, 2004-05-20 at 11:26 -0500, Joseph Booker wrote:
2 > foser said:
3 > > Relatively speaking. Sure there's always a few users using them, but is
4 > it worth what it adds in complexity ?
5 >
6 > those who care to get the optional features, those interested in what the
7 > package can do. ebuild hacking should be a last resort to fix something
8 > that wouldn't compile or any such situtaution where there is an error,
9
10 Something not compiling by default is a bug (unless you have insane
11 CFLAGS), that has nothing todo with 'users' hacking on ebuilds (i'm a
12 user too).
13
14 > nothing normal users should have to do provided the ebuild is
15 > well-written. if you just use what you think are sensable defaults rather
16 > then local use flags, then you will get bug reports of the users
17 > submitting patchs to enable/disable these features to make the package
18 > 'better'. how much choice is that? the idea of using packages like
19 > php-with-mysql will come up, things will get less maintainable, bugs for
20 > people being forced to edit ebuilds and doing it wrong, or worse, the devs
21 > could refuse to help them as they are using modified unoffical ebuilds
22
23 Well, mysql is as global as it gets and rightfully so, so that example
24 wasn't chosen too well. This is not about removing obvious USE flags or
25 anything.
26
27 The people who tend to ask for obscure features/local use flags usually
28 know perfectly fine how to accomplish their goals. That is the point.
29 Nobody uses it, except them and they can have it on a local level just
30 the way they want it (and probably already have it like that at that
31 point).
32
33 Bugs in local scripts are not bugs that devs should be held responsible
34 for (as in solving them), but we have a tremendous community who usually
35 have most stuff ready before the upstream devs even announced the
36 release (thats a curse & blessing at the same time). In one way that is
37 a compliment to the ease of Gentoo (what I'm trying to hold onto here)
38 and on the other hand an indication that there is a thriving community
39 that can help with most issues.
40
41 > > To start : it is not equivalent, binary packaging is a mess of it's own
42 > and ebuilding is starting to go that same way. And it used to be
43 > perfectly fine to say such things ('edit it to your needs') and people
44 > accepted that, because it was (is?) a breeze to edit simple builds
45 > script for example. But somewhere along the way we moved to holding
46 > hands for even the most obscure of setups.
47 >
48 > perhaps the gentoo comunity is become less and less made up of developers
49 > who know how ebuilds work and bash scripting, and is now more and more of
50 > those who can't?
51
52 I never wrote a bash script before I joined Gentoo. But you pick it up
53 in no-time, well... used to. Nowadays I agree it isn't as simple
54 anymore, but that's actually my point. Some evil voices still say I
55 can't do shell scripting (*cough* ciaranm *cough* ;) They're probably
56 right, doesn't that make a point for the easyness of Gentoo buildscripts
57 in itself?
58
59 Sure the userbase has changed, but that still is no reason to add
60 obscure options. I'm not against USE flags or anything, I'm against the
61 proliferation of forced dumbing down to a level where only devs in a
62 particular area know how to handle stuff, because it's complex mess of
63 distro specific scripts & options (like some well-known distros do).
64
65 - foser

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