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On Mon, 2005-09-19 at 16:41 -0400, Michael Miller wrote: |
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> Not to rant on, but my stance on gentoo, albeit against many of the |
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> developers, is that it is a fast operating system. That is, in my |
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|
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Gentoo, under most circumstances, is not any faster than any other |
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distribution. In fact, in most cases, other distributions are faster |
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due to their heavy use of prelink. |
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|
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> view, the only thing seperating it from other distros save for |
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> portage. Many people like to tweak every last bit of performance out |
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|
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I'm sorry to hear that you missed out on the most important part of |
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Gentoo, and that is empowering you to use your system as you like and |
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configure it how you wish. |
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|
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> of gentoo, which is great! However, I think gentoo should indeed be |
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> more user friendly. Don't get me wrong-I CAN install gentoo, and edit |
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> configuration files, but it is very time consuming, and not time |
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> efficent for me. I wish gentoo was very easy to install(like redhat), |
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|
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That isn't the reason for this project, nor will it ever be. Gentoo |
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will never be easy to install simply because we don't make decisions for |
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you. This means there will *always* be a huge installation guide and |
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lots of options to chose from. Sure, we could take away all decisions |
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and make it a simple "Next, Next, Next, Finish" installer like Red Hat |
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or Windows, but that would kill Gentoo's primary advantage. |
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|
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> and included an easy to use configuration tweaker where you could |
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> EASILY change your cflags for basic optimizations for specific |
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> processors(you could select p4, amd64, etc etc). You would of course |
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|
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Well, considering the only CFLAGS option you ever really need to change |
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is -march, I don't see the issue. See, us developers don't recommend |
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anything further than "-O2 -march=${subarch} -pipe" for any |
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installation. Funny enough, that is what the stages default to, anyway. |
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Amazing how that works, isn't it? *grin* |
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Also, a configuration tool is beyond the scope of the installer project, |
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at least currently. This project is for the design of a rapid |
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deployment tool for Gentoo. |
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> be able to manually edit it as well. The thing that I find so |
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> daunting about linux, as compared to windows, is the fact that you |
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> have to know what almost every single file does. Wanna change your |
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> sound card? You have to know where /etc/alsa is. It is these kinds of |
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|
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You know that many consider this to be one of the primary reasons *for* |
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using Linux, right? I'd rather know what every file on my system does |
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than have 2GB of crap in "System32" that I'm not allowed to touch or |
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look at for fear of it completely hosing up my system. |
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|
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> things that frustrate me. Don't get me wrong, I know MANY, if not all |
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> but me on this mailing list, are opposed to catering to end users who |
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> don't want to have to memorize a 40 page guide to know how to install |
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> gentoo in their head, but I think it would be a good idea to have |
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> gentoo easy to configure. I'm not saying someone who doesn't know how |
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|
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Well, we probably cater to "end users" more than most distributions, |
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through our excellent documentation. Nobody expects you to remember it |
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all. That's why we put the documentation on all of our release media. |
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We also have it available online in several forms. We even translate it |
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into a bunch of languages, for non-English speakers. |
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|
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The main thing to understand is that Linux is complex, as is any |
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operating system. A computer is not a simple device like a TV or VCR. |
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Instead it is a complex system of interconnected parts. You cannot |
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treat it like an appliance and expect to get good results from it. This |
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is why we have such a dearth of information available at your disposal. |
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|
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> to install Windows will know how to setup and run a gentoo |
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> installation, but I think it should be easier to run then it currently |
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> is. |
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There's no skill involved in installing Windows, nor Gentoo. If you can |
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click "Next" then you can install Windows. If you can read and follow |
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directions, then you can install Gentoo. It requires no real critical |
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thinking to follow instructions. ;] |
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|
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> On another side note I things that the thing that is blocking linux |
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> from the end user are application installation, and driver |
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> installation. Come up with an easy way to do both of these, and i'll |
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> never use win32 again :). |
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|
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emerge $program? |
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|
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genkernel all? |
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|
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How much easier can it be? I mean, we already beat the snot out of |
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Windows for usability. Want Mozilla Firefox? Type "emerge |
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mozilla-firefox" and wait. If you wanted to do the same thing under |
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Windows, you would need to open a web browser, surf to |
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www.mozilla.org/firefox, grab a zip file of firefox, unzip it (hoping |
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you have an application to do so), run setup.exe, click "Next" 50 |
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bazillion times, then click on "Finish". This is a massive number of |
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steps to do a simple task, yet people claim that Linux is too hard to |
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use. |
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|
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How about adding drivers? Well, if you use genkernel, then you'll have |
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every driver pre-configured and ready to go on your system, minus one or |
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two minor things (yeah, graphics drivers suck). If you follow the |
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Handbook and install coldplug, then you'll have 0 configuration to do. |
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> Again, I want to reidorate, I realize that the main focus of gentoo is |
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> to cater to so called "power users" who know everything about Linux, |
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No. The main focus of Gentoo is to *empower* *all* users to do what |
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they want with Linux. This can be anyone from a person who has never |
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touched Linux to a 30-year Unix veteran. You aren't required to really |
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know what you're doing to use Gentoo. You're just required to read and |
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comprehend. |
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> and tweak everything in it. I just wish that I could have a tweakable |
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> operating system without reading 40 pages each time I installed it! |
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Feel free to write one. |
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One thing I always find humorous is the comparisons with Windows and |
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Linux where everyone claims Windows is easier. It isn't. In most cases |
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you have to do at *least* twice as much work to get something done. The |
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main issue is that you're already *used* to doing all of that work, so |
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it doesn't *seem* like you're doing so much work. Take my Firefox |
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example above and you'll understand what I mean. |
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Anyway, this is *way* off-topic for this list, so I'll shut up now. ;] |
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-- |
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Chris Gianelloni |
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Release Engineering - Strategic Lead |
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Games - Developer |
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Gentoo Linux |