From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7F741381FA for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 21:37:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 710A0E07EC; Tue, 6 May 2014 21:37:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from qmta09.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta09.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.96]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E070AE07EC for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 21:37:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from omta09.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.20]) by qmta09.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id yl731n0010SCNGk59ldYce; Tue, 06 May 2014 21:37:32 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.13] ([50.190.84.14]) by omta09.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id yldY1n00B0JZ7Re3VldYLA; Tue, 06 May 2014 21:37:32 +0000 Message-ID: <53695612.40808@gentoo.org> Date: Tue, 06 May 2014 17:37:22 -0400 From: Joshua Kinard User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-mips@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-mips@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gentoo-mips@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-mips] Reducing the number of the MIPS supported stages References: <53679ACC.3000809@gentoo.org> <53680A7E.9000209@gentoo.org> <53682856.5040005@gentoo.org> <53688A17.2070509@gentoo.org> <536898F6.7060404@gentoo.org> <536920DD.3080608@gentoo.org> In-Reply-To: <536920DD.3080608@gentoo.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1399412252; bh=976aTN0MDgqtlYnBaIsGw/AzBkw2zKt6tiDhBMhKyDg=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:Subject: Content-Type; b=SADZd14rABc3/y+1CSPzsN/C0OwvXKT6HewAWGDJ4IzBkj8xz7wdmBtshHix/RzHD C8pt59lS0o7IOm1wwhW/D7iQc1rruaTrYP0bUg7p/rU8OBHVnC+kl99Ada/1XnbBED AqqNuX87CviSEz1TGb8TC+tPJCRWpS1sQZDqt/0sTr/dg14R1rCPA1c5RUwNjd0Kql +AiXFVILrxI2KYSOKi/9KNxwxmeELibllTldUhnBVbglh+xsGyIcb0OTvYdTgEHAgg WyxfBhlxTTNN1qbH7mXOIF8wzmWcv8WTEUe+y6lbVp0omfV8wvFSOkfK8CaLw6+rwW 4ttTaTVMaJ2vw== X-Archives-Salt: dfd40d7c-87df-489e-83ee-11d6b9eb5a66 X-Archives-Hash: 8b1352d582fd24329d7605916b38c304 On 05/06/2014 13:50, Markos Chandras wrote: > On 05/06/2014 09:10 AM, Joshua Kinard wrote: >> On 05/06/2014 03:07, Markos Chandras wrote: >>> @kumba: You mentioned too many times that I wanted to "drop" support for >>> mips3 and mips4. I never said that (I am sort-of tired keep repeating >>> that). All I said (again) was to reduce the frequency or stop building >>> them at all. Users can still get an existing mips3/mips4 stage3 and >>> update themselves >> >> Maybe it's just my way of interpretation, but in your opening paragraph, >> even though you said we wouldn't drop support, you did suggest not creating >> new stages for mips1-mips4. >> >> Given a sufficiently long-enough time, that effectively drops support due to >> bitrot. Like I mentioned w/ the 2009-era userland on this Octane, I am not >> going to even try to update that, simply due to the amount of time it would >> take, even if I figure the IRQ prioritization bugs out. >> >> So, my apologies if I read it wrong, but that's just how I see it. >> >> >>> (picking up a random thread) >>> >>> Ok thanks for the replies. >>> >>> Ok I think it's safe to proceed with the following: >>> - Stop mips1 builds (we don't have mips2) >> >> I'll defer to Matt to chime in to my last message and correct me anymore, if >> needed, but, I think we'll want to keep either a mips1 or a mips2, but not >> both. As well as decide whether it's a full stage3 or just a simple >> stage1/stage2 tarball so people have a base from which to start a port to a >> new MIPS machine if needed. That can get updated once a year, especially if >> it's a stage1 which shouldn't take long at all. > > I see no value for mips1 or mips2 so feel free to pick these up. Even if > someone is using them as bootstrap, then *any* mips1 stage3 would do. WFM. >>> - Reduce the frequency to once-a-year for mips3 and mips4. Updating >>> these stages every year with catalyst will be a lot of fun ;) >> >> NAK, At least once every 6 months, and preferably shortly after the .1 >> release of a new major gcc rev, given gcc's absurd compile time now. Gentoo >> moves fast, and a lot can change in a year. > > Forgive me but this almost sounds like an order :) This is not going to > happen, sorry :) I don't want to become a build robot and spend all my > Gentoo/MIPS time doing stages. With the introduction of new ISAs, the > total number of stages will grow even more, and like i explained > multiple times, this does not scale. There are other parts of the > architecture that needs some love too and right now I have no time for both. It's not an order, sorry. Just a preference to avoid long compile times. If you have a stage3 built against gcc-4.8.x, and 4.9.x becomes stable, someone installing will have to compile 4.9, then rebuild everything to gain the enhancements 4.9 will bring. If a new stage3 is built after the .1 release of a new major rev (so that we avoid major bugs in the .0 release), that should mitigate that problem. > And you haven't really convinced me why mips4 is desired, when mips3 can > run just fine on mips4 hardware. I think you need to be realist, and > take into consideration, not just your personal needs, but also the time > it actually takes to build and maintain all these stages. I explained > that so many times already, I am not going to do that again. > As Anthony said, mipsel3 is used by lemote, so keeping it alive is > probably a good thing (though the newer hardware is mips64 capable) Well, to me, mips3 != mipsel3. Sorry about that. When I say mips3/mips4 (lowercase), I usually refer to big-endian. If I capitalize the ISA, i.e., MIPS-III or MIPS-IV, then I'm referring to the entire ISA, regardless of endianness. So, to re-clarify my original statement, for big-endian SGI systems, we probably only need mips4 and I guess the mips4_r10 stages. I don't know if any of our users still have or run R4x00 mips3 big-endian equipment. If so, well, I can do that too, then. It's just a higher electric bill :) And it's not really my personal preference. Based on my understanding of what we currently support, that's what makes sense to me. I know you work on MIPS stuff for your day job, but it's a hobby for me, so I have to prioritize things a bit differently. That said, I've done catalyst runs before, so I know how time-consuming they can be, especially if the build breaks somewhere in the middle of a long compile. I think what we need to do is instead of having just one person like you or Matt do all of the stage building, separate out the ISAs/ABIs/etc to the people that actually care most about it. Anthony works with the mipsel3 Lemote hardware, so if he wants, he can take care of mipsel3 stages; I'll handle the SGI stuff since I know a lot about those machines; and you can cover whichever of the newer ISAs matter most to you. Sound reasonable? We can even work out a set timetable for stage building, or just release individual stages on an as-needed basis. >> Otherwise, just e-mail me your mips3/mips4/mips4_r10 spec files, any custom >> tweaks/changes to catalyst, and any specific instructions you do >> before/during/after a catalyst build and I'll put the O2 to work if needed. >> > > There is nothing special about my spec files and I do nothing special in > catalyst so feel free to pick up the mips3 and mips4 stages. If you are > having troubles with catalyst email the gentoo-catalyst@ ML. That might > actually be a good way for you to become active again ;) Back in the past, I had to tweak catalyst sometimes to get it to do stage builds properly. A lot of those bugs have probably been fixed by now, at least for stage1-3. The livecd stages and netboots, however, were much more problematic. If you can still send me at least one of your stage3 spec files, that'd be appreciated. It's been 5-6 years since I last messed with catalyst. The Octane was my build platform, but combined with the bitrot that prevented it from booting, moving, a new job, etc, I never got around to setting up stage building on the O2. Now that I can boot Octane again, I can at least recover my old spec files, though. Might help if I ever attempt to tackle the livecd or netboot builds again. -- Joshua Kinard Gentoo/MIPS kumba@gentoo.org 4096R/D25D95E3 2011-03-28 "The past tempts us, the present confuses us, the future frightens us. And our lives slip away, moment by moment, lost in that vast, terrible in-between." --Emperor Turhan, Centauri Republic