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On 2/3/08, Jan Bilek <clonolu@×××××.com> wrote: |
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> Hi again, |
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> |
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> I want to write some kind of 'a summary answer' addressed to all of |
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> you who reacted to my posts - thank you very much for your answers. |
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> |
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> Obviously there were many things that I was not informed properly |
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> about and you have explained many of them to me - thanx. |
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> |
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> Please forgive me for being so sceptical about those 'formal and |
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> instititutionalized' ways of doing things (regular |
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> meetings/summaries/named positions). I do realize now that I saw only |
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> a small part of a picture when I wrote about it and I hope nobody took |
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> it personally (if someone did - I am so sorry about it). |
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> BTW - this might be some kind of a cultural issue; seeing your names I |
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> guess none of you is from eastern Europe... we used to live in this |
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> centrally and formally organized society based on regular meetings, |
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> summaries and people assigned to every task possible - and it was not |
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> efficient, it sucked and everybody hated it. |
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> It might be useful to know about this issue - seeing this |
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> (http://www.google.com/trends?q=gentoo) I would guess great deal of |
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> people interested in Gentoo are from eastern Europe. |
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> |
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> My goal is not to criticize, my goal is to get closer to the truth |
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> about current state and possible future of Gentoo. |
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> |
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> As an user I had almost no first-hand experience. I had to rely on |
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> second-hand conveyed information: |
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> Daniel Robbins claiming that there is a crisis in Gentoo (he is some |
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> kind of an authority to many users - when he says something I have to |
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> take it seriously). Some of his arguments seem to be very logical and |
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> insightful and some things seem to support his opinions: |
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> - so many people obviously supporting him |
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> (http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-644321-highlight-robbins.html). |
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|
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The thread was locked (which in hindsight was unfortunate). While I'm |
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sure the numbers look compelling I doubt they tell the whole story. |
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This isn't to say they should be dismissed out of hand; just that they |
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only represent a subset of the data. |
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|
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> - Gentoo used to be 'bleeding edge' - it's not anymore. |
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|
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I'm really digging for specifics here. 'bleeding edge' is very |
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unspecific. It is my experience that major updates are available |
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hours or days after release. Are you dissatisfied that this is not |
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true for some packages, or dissatisfied that the packages are marked |
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for testing and masked instead of being stable or ~arch? |
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|
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> - I remember the last big crisis 'Robbins vs. McCreesh', valuable |
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> developers leaving Gentoo as a result... and in my opinion |
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> Council/devrel were not able to handle it, the only outcome I noticed |
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> was toothless CoC - that didn't seem like viable management to me. |
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|
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I don't think we have ever handled internal nor external conflicts |
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well and we could easily use improvement in this area. |
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|
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> - complaining users - I have read so many complaints, many of them are |
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> very similar and frequent (let me paraphrase): 'Gendoo developers are |
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> arrogant'. 'Gentoo is a club for elitists'. 'They do Gentoo just for |
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> yourselves, they don't care about users'. 'I wanted to help Gentoo but |
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> it's too difficult to get in'. 'It takes too long for ebuilds to get |
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> to the official tree and I miss important apps'. 'Gentoo's structure |
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> is not flexible enough - Arch is also great and it's much easier to |
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> contibute', 'I sent patch but no one carred', 'dev told me in response |
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> to a bug report I filed 'get over it and move on'. |
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|
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Arrogant? I'd imagine some are; I personally try not to be and I'm |
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sure I fail at it quite often. |
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|
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I don't think Gentoo is a club for elitests; you should trying the |
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commits list sometime. People think this system is awesome and they |
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have no idea of the technical layers of muck that it barely runs on. |
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The only consolation is that most other places are in a similar boat |
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;) |
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|
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I certainly develop for myself and not for users. Now this is a fine |
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line to walk. Developing for yourself means you work at your own |
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pace; it doesn't give you the right to be mean to folks or to |
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contribute negatively. It means you don't really get deadlines and |
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you get to choose what to work on regardless of others input. |
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|
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I would counter-argue that a *subset* of users have unrealistic |
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expectations such as having ebuilds in the tree hours after release, |
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or fixing a bug just because it was filed, or asking for crazy code |
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changes to the package manager to fix their corner case that is not |
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sane. The point is that most developers are pretty nice and will |
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probably help you if you ask in a courteous manner and most users are |
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nice to talk to and help. |
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|
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> |
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> On the other end: |
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> - developers claiming that technically Gentoo works better then ever. |
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> And as for me Gentoo really works well. |
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|
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Compared to what it could be it sucks; but I agree it is possibly |
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better than it used to be. |
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|
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> - my personal experience with Gentoo developers is great - you have |
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> been very nice to me. And I have read many posts from people like |
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> Grant Goodyear and the others - to me they seem to be very smart, |
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> communicative and constructive people. |
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|
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I'm glad your experiences have been positive. |
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|
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> - some of these complaining users seem to me to be just people who |
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> like to follow the strong leader no matter where he leads them. |
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> - some of these complaining users seem to me to be just whiners who |
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> want everything, don't understand anything, don't even bother to do |
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> anything and just call developers 'arrogant bastards' when they are |
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> not able to give them what they want - of course for free. |
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|
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I would group these people together; but they are a useful group |
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regardless. If gentoo had no detractors I would be worried ;) There |
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is always some truth to the complaints and it could be useful to look |
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for the underlying cause of some of the complaints and fix them. |
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|
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> - many of users (talking about myself right now?) don't understand |
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> what is going on, trying to figure it out, confused by inconsistent |
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> news, misleading information and sometimes lack of information (some |
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> want missing apps but don't know about overlays, some are talking |
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> about Arch and it's openness (AUR) but maybe don't know about details |
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> of Gentoo's QA and security/quality issues related to the openness, |
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> some are talking about bad communication but don't know all the |
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> channels of communication, don't have time to follow up...etc. etc.). |
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|
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We don't have enough cohesion right now to present a unified front. |
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PR is composed of only so many folks and those folks in turn are |
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driven by events from developers and users in a bottom up fashion; aka |
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they don't report news unless they are told or they know about it. We |
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have about 100+ mailing lists for projects and no one can monitor them |
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all. This was supposed to be how the GWN operated; news would |
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percolate to the GWN folks who would create a weekly newsletter; |
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however submissions stopped coming in which is why the news stopped. |
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I think many users enjoyed the content in the GWN and I think we could |
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possibly try something like that again. How do we notify users that |
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the news is basically driven by their input? We have no reporters; |
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which means we need people to act as them for us. |
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|
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> |
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> We all know that communication is crucial. Someone could say users are |
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> responsible to find the information they need. But it's useful (for |
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> Gentoo, even for developers) to make it as easy as possible for them. |
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> I think this "A more "in your face" approach" idea you came up with is |
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> great and as an user I can say "yes, that's what I need everywhere |
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> where it's possible". |
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> |
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> Generally... I think that it's better to suppose that the complainers |
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> might be right and look into it (and maybe find out that they are |
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> not). If they are right you can fix things. If they are not you can |
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> explain it to them and you are not going to lose them. That's why I |
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> have written those posts - trying to express my actual thoughts and |
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> see if they can be helpful or they will be just put right. |
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> |
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> At least by giving you an opportunity to correct my misperceptions of |
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> some things related to Gentoo I also gave you an opportunity to |
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> communicate to users who google "gentoo crisis":-) |
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> |
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> Thanks for all the work you do for us, |
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> Jan. |
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Thanks for writing. |
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|
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-Alec |
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> |
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> |
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> P.S. - I am sorry about that formatting issue - my fault. |
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> -- |
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> gentoo-nfp@l.g.o mailing list |
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> |
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> |
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-- |
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