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Ack... Books!%$^& |
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On Tue, 2006-08-01 at 21:30 +0100, Stuart Herbert wrote: |
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> Ned Ludd wrote: |
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> > This is a pretty long book you wrote. So I'll just say what I think |
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> > here. |
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> > |
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> > No offense but this seems like a crack heads pipe dream and would |
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> > probably not be a wise use of funds. Dump 300k in hardware, developer |
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> > training, books, etc and we will get a lot more accomplished that make |
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> > Gentoo itself better. Raise 300k and get us all together and you will |
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> > see 250 people with hangovers and a small handful projects that come |
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> > out of it in the end. SoC will probably of proved to be more successful |
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> > (end results) for a lot cheaper. |
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> |
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> You call it a crack heads pipe dream. But I say this: why are we the only |
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> major distribution (or, heck, one of the few major open source projects) |
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> that does nothing to get its contributors together offline? How can you |
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> have a real community whose main interaction is bitching at each other via a |
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> puny mailing list? That's not *my* idea of a community. |
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> |
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> That's what it comes down to. I'm standing as a trustee, because this is |
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> something I want to change. |
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|
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|
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Well that is a defiantly a positive attitude that we need. |
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|
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> -- |
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> |
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> PS: Here's the long argument if anyone's interested. |
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> |
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> Does that mean that things like DebConf, GUADEC, aKademy, and so on, are |
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> also a crack head's pipe dream? These things happen, and when you add up |
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> how much money is spent on events like these - where hundreds of folks |
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> travel from around the world to be in the same place at the same time - |
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> you'll be looking at probably the same amount of money as a Gentoo |
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> conference will cost. |
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> |
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> 300K in hardware's not going to make Gentoo better. I'm sure there are |
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> folks out there who could use better hardware than what they have; we all |
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> want better hardware ;-) But, ultimately, it's the time each individual |
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> developer can dedicate to working on Gentoo that makes the difference. |
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> Extra / faster hardware can help by speeding up tasks, but it only helps so far. |
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> |
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> You can't dump 300K of hardware on infra either. Sure, infra needs more |
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> money than it currently has - that's indisputable - but lots of extra |
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> centrally-hosted hardware will just mean more boxes that waiting for the |
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> very understaffed infra team to turn their attention to them. It already |
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> takes weeks for infra to get things done, and that's not always for lack of |
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> hardware. (This isn't an attack on infra; it's simply an observed fact). |
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|
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Noted.. I'll say that infra is a pretty small team and usually one of |
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the harder ones to get quick results out of as it's a lot of mundane |
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boring tasks that falls in it's courts.. |
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|
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> 300K will buy you a lot of books, but do you need it? Has anyone tried |
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> talking to the big publishers, to see if we can arrange discounts on buying |
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> books (and maybe getting copies for free)? |
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|
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Mike has worked with oreilly a bit... |
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I would see your efforts better used in such things as education |
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vs trying to get all together for a pow wow. |
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|
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> Developer training ... who's going to train Gentoo developers? The only |
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> folks who are supposed to be more expert than us are $UPSTREAM, most of who |
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> we couldn't buy training from if we wanted to. |
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|
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Stu.. You got to be kidding me here.. |
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Gentoo developers vs other major distros are very under par.. |
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We need work here.. big time.. |
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|
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> Sure, we could pay for |
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> general C, C++, Python, PHP, Ruby et al training, but do we really need to? |
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|
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Yes.. most of our guys can't code their way out of a hand basket. if |
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they could we would see more proactive base development (which we don't) |
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|
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> If there's such a skills shortage atm amongst Gentoo developers, how did |
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> they get to be Gentoo developers? ;-) |
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|
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We have had lower standards than we really should of in the past. |
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In case you did not notice for year or so there was an influx of |
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developers for tiny pkgs (no names as that would be very rude). |
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Thankfully that has slowed down and the ones who were not really as |
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qualified as they should of been are in much better shape now. |
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|
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|
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> Where will you buy PHP training from |
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> for me? There isn't anywhere that you can. Is it fair that I won't get any |
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> money from you, but others will? |
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> |
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|
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money better spent on proactive educational events vs social events.. |
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|
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> How are you going to decide who to spend the money on? |
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|
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not my job.. I'm here to simply point out a bad idea when I see one. |
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|
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> Will you agree to |
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> buy every member of the web-apps team shiny OS X boxes, and pay for Windows |
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> licenses for us all? After all, our work enables folks to put something |
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> useful on Gentoo-based web servers. From a QA point of view, we really |
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> should be testing all web-based packages against the top three browsers (IE, |
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> Firefox on Windows, and Safari). |
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|
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Sorry but this paragraph is irrelevant and tacky. |
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|
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|
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> I believe that the difference between our point of view is that I think you |
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> are measuring "end results" in terms of lines of code. X packages, Y |
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> ebuilds, Z turn-around time. That sort of thing. |
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|
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Yes you are correct. |
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I'm one of those guys who looks at the budget and says whats wasteful, |
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whats productive and what will help us grow. |
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|
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> I'm looking at the |
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> intangibles, such as the effect that a fragmented and polarised group is |
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> having on moving the distro forward, and on general morale. I look at other |
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> opensource projects that I'm involved with, and I see that face to face |
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> contact breaks down communication barriers. |
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|
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regional events do this quite well. |
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|
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> It's not a silver bullet, but |
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> social interaction is an important part of a community, and it's something |
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> that Gentoo sorely lacks. |
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|
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I don't mean to rub my own stone.. But.... I've never met up with a |
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single other developer.. I do quite well. I've started a few sucessful |
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projects and I've helped gentoo grow and appeal to a community that |
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matter. Sometimes.. other people just suck.. Getting us together for |
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sure wont make guys like XYZ suck any less. It might make us get a kick |
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or a laugh out of it.. |
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|
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> Having folks get to know each other offline will |
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> help break down those barriers. I know it has here in the UK, amongst those |
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> who have attended one of the annual UK meets. |
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|
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Thats great.. Should be volunteer however. |
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|
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> 300K sounds like a lot of money (especially if you have to raise it), but in |
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> reality it's not. |
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|
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Right not so much if you are used to dealing with it.. However in |
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essence what you might do is turn our community into something like |
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OBSD/Theo which begs for money and makes a fool of itself doing so.. |
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Even if it's granted money from sources such as the DOD which is wasted |
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on nothing more than developer events. |
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|
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Try bring up any sort of money events on dev.. There will be backlash no |
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matter how good your intentions are. ;/ |
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|
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I think the key thing from my POV which you may not be considering is |
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that every dime you beg for you are essiantly pulling/stealing that |
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away from an already existing limited resource pull. |
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|
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Please don't get me wrong I admire your goals and enthusiasm, but I |
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don't think it's very realistic or ideal at this point in time for this |
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distro at hand. If you want to win my vote and you want to raise money |
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then I think the educational route is the way to go.. Set up a platform |
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in which developers are granted access to online educational resources. |
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The more we lean the better developers and people we become in the end. |
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|
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> It's the annual turnover of a small business. It's the |
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> annual cost of a small server cluster with a third-party hosting service. |
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> At current exchange rates, 300K US is only 169K sterling. That won't even |
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> buy you a house in many UK cities. |
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> |
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> 300K is a figure you've plucked out of the air. No-one actually knows how |
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> much this sort of event will cost - and my proposal |
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|
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Right.. I figured about 1k per dev and thats probably a low |
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ball figure depending on where said event could be held. |
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Clearly tied into a LWE(SF) would be best. |
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|
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> Another point to consider. How are you going to raise any substantial sum |
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> of money if you don't have clear targets to focus potential doners on? We |
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> already say "Hi, we're Gentoo, donate to us" today, and the last available |
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> financial report speaks volumes for how well that's working out [1]. |
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|
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"Hey give us money.. We fight like a bunch of fags every few days..." |
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|
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I give gentoo my blood and sweat (probably cuz I'm a fool).. |
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But in reality we don't not deserve a dime till such time as we |
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learn how to make our developers behave remotely like professionals. |
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We got a long way to go on that front.. Getting us together may help in |
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the slightest but unless we are working from good seed/stock to begin |
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with I really can't see that happening for us any time soon. |
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Solve that.. I'll give you my vote and even promote you in my |
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spare time. |
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|
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None the less.. I do admire you for your end goals.. I think if you |
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change the platform a little and just say "I'm going to focus on |
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fund raising for future events" this might stand a chance.. |
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|
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Final note.. in no way is any part of this mail intended to be a flame. |
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I'm simply saying that any funds raised should be focused on |
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improving our developing abilities. (I/We need 50 clones of Mike) |
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|
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-peace |
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|
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|
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... |
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|
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-- |
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Ned Ludd <solar@g.o> |
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Gentoo Linux |
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|
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-- |
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gentoo-nfp@g.o mailing list |