Gentoo Archives: gentoo-nfp

From: Steve Long <slong@××××××××××××××××××.uk>
To: gentoo-nfp@l.g.o
Subject: [gentoo-nfp] Re: Council=CTO or Executive Board? [was: Re: Re: Re: Foundation reinstated]
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 19:31:33
Message-Id: 200805202027.32272.slong@rathaus.eclipse.co.uk
1 William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
2
3 > On Mon, 2008-05-19 at 21:36 +0100, Steve Long wrote:
4 >>
5 >> Yeah but I disagree that the Council is limited to CTO, since the whole
6 >> pupose of Gentoo is to develop software. I'd argue the Trustees are a
7 >> Supervisory Board, and the Council an Executive Board within the two-tier
8 >> model.
9 >
10 > CTO is an executive position and title. Given full control over R&D,
11 > technology, technical direction, etc.
12 >
13 Sure: the point I'm making is that the Executive body oversees the core
14 day-to-day activities of producing whatever goods or services the
15 organisation provides. In Gentoo's case, that's software development, and I
16 don't think the Trustees can declare that to be simply technology related to
17 the industry: it's the *whole* of what Gentoo does.
18
19 > But the council is not over the foundation wrt to hierarchy. It's
20 > supposed to be a subsidiary board. For example, Council dictates to
21 > infra. But infra lacks what they need to make council happy. Decision to
22 > approve/fund, lies with foundation. So who's the top? ( not meant in
23 > terms of power )
24 >
25 Hmm I thought the Council had authority to approve expenditure? IIRC Gentoo UK
26 received a small amount last year for the hall hire.
27
28 While I agree that the Trustees have the legal responsibility, and would
29 welcome their actively engaging with financial, legal, personnel and indeed
30 social matters, I see that as *support* for the core work, not _authority_
31 over it. Agreed, they are at the top of that hierarchy, as you put it,
32 certainly in legal terms wrt IP. I still think this is more like a
33 Supervisory Board (including the Chair and non-execs) with the Council as
34 Executive Board.
35
36 > Something happens technically and Gentoo is sued. Does council then step
37 > in and represent Gentoo. No the foundation does, and take full blame and
38 > responsibility for councils actions or etc.
39 >
40 Well the disclaimer of any and all warranty, express or implied, contained in
41 the GPL means there can be no legal comeback for any technical failings as
42 far as I can see. What technical screw-up could possibly happen that would
43 incur liability for the Foundation?
44
45 Even the hypothetical "rogue dev" or group of devs would imo only incur
46 liability for themselves as individuals, not anyone else who was not party
47 to, and had no knowledge of, their actions.
48
49 > In a case like the present, where the council is to be replaced per some
50 > policy. There is no entity over the council to see that through. Because
51 > of our current structure. Nor are there any checks or balances.
52 >
53 Hmm that's true enough. My feeling is that the Council is pretty open in its
54 meetings (more so this year than last, since meetings are open to the floor)
55 so the check and balance are the devs. And there can't always be yet another
56 body to oversee changes; at some point it has to stop. Granted, the Trustees
57 have bylaws, and are legally formed to follow those, but that is no guarantee
58 of anything, based on the past and also on the attempts by drobbins to stuff
59 the board with his nominees: that structure can easily be subverted iow.
60 Since the Council deals with the stuff we're all interested in, there is a
61 guaranteed level of interest in their meetings and decisions.
62
63 > More to the point that this hurts Gentoo technically. While companies
64 > like Redhat can partner with say Intel. Making sure their stuff is
65 > certified on Intel hardware. There would need to be liaisons if that was
66 > to happen for Gentoo.
67 >
68 I thought Gentoo already has agreements with other organisations? That was
69 given as a reason for not simply ditching the old Foundation and starting
70 afresh. But agreed, liason with external entities and the wider environment,
71 is very much under the remit of the Supervisory Board, or the Chair and
72 non-execs.
73
74 > Like say the council says we want to support Intel's newest yet to be
75 > released chipset. They mention that to the board/officers. Whom then in
76 > turn contact Intel and facilitate a vendor relationship. Which is then
77 > handed back to the council, to see through technically.
78 >
79 > Again normal organization like you would see in any normal business
80 > entity. Which the Gentoo Foundation is a business entity,
81
82 It's not though is it? It's a charity, based on volunteer work.
83
84 > so should have some structure to reflect that. Given how chaotic at times
85 > our existing structure is, or lack there of. I can see it making a huge
86 > difference in the long run.
87 >
88 My feeling is that that risks losing the sense of "creative anarchy" that
89 others have mentioned to me as being a bonus of working on Gentoo. Simply
90 put, Gentoo devs are not beholden to any company, nor deadlines, and I
91 imagine quite like it like that (I certainly enjoy the fact that I am not
92 answerable to anyone for the bits of Free work I do), so expecting them
93 collectively to form a "business entity" is unrealistic, perhaps.
94
95 Businesses using the technology, as you have mentioned, are another matter,
96 similarly to any other distro, and should imo pay a regular fee of some sort
97 to Gentoo. (If it doesn't help their bottom line, they wouldn't be using it.)
98
99 >> The portage team strike me more as the CTO in that setup though I admit
100 >> your knowledge of these titles outweighs mine ;)
101 >
102 > What does the portage team have to do wrt to R&D, or technical direction
103 > of Gentoo as a whole?
104
105 It was the "industry-specific technologies" part of the CTO def'n you linked
106 that made me think of that. Within the world of software distros, what is
107 specific to Gentoo is portage and the ebuilds it enables.
108
109 > Portage is just one piece of the pie, that the council oversees, decides the
110 > recipe, and bakes.
111
112 Yes but it does that for everything produced by Gentoo. Support and
113 documentation are built around the software, not the other way round.
114
115 > Thus CTO, there is no
116 > one beyond the CTO on technical matters. They are the top, and they
117 > report in layman's to the CEO/Officers, and board at times if they are
118 > split.
119
120 HR, Finance, Legal, IT et al are only there to support the main
121 product/workflow in any corp. I'm curious as to what else, besides the
122 distro, you see as Gentoo's product?
123
124 > For decisions that might involve them or to simply keep them
125 > informed or in the loop.
126 >
127 > Put it like this, Council answers to devs. Foundation answers to
128 > community. At some point the council should answer to the Foundation as
129 > well. Otherwise the community has no voice, only developers.
130 >
131 I agree the Council should answer to the Foundation, and vice versa, most
132 specifically in the Foundation's case wrt how their work supports the
133 mainline activity. And I'm all in favour of the Trustees taking on social and
134 political issues, as well as the Financial, Legal and so on.
135
136 > Although the Foundation, board/officers, will never dictate to the
137 > council/CTO on technical matters. At best only suggest, based on the
138 > will of the community, vendors, or etc. What the council does from
139 > there, is up to them. As it is now. Because after all they know what is
140 > best technically, and that's their call to make in the end.
141 >
142 Yes and that technical stuff is not simply industry-specific technologies to
143 support some other activity: it's the whole of the activity of the
144 organisation.
145
146 Please do check out the Supervisory Board link if you haven't; it's a model
147 that's much more prevalent in the EU than the US, and I feel it's much closer
148 to the intent of the Foundation than your suggestions for the Trustees as the
149 Executive Board.
150
151 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supervisory_board
152 --
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