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Chris Gianelloni wrote: |
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|
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> On Wed, 2008-01-30 at 03:00 +0000, Steve Long wrote: |
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>> > On Wed, 2008-01-30 at 00:49 +0000, Steve Long wrote: |
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>> >> I'd also like to nominate patrick who runs gentooexperimental.org, |
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>> >> hosting amongst other things pkgcore (which cross-pollinates with |
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>> >> portage) and notTheGWN: |
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>> >> http://gentooexperimental.org/not-the-gwn/not-the-gwn-current.html |
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>> > |
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>> > Yes, we definitely need people that were "retired" from the project to |
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>> > run our legal entity. *roll eyes* |
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>> > |
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>> Hmm ok, only he was in the eligible list and has contributed an awful lot |
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>> to Gentoo, but not really as a technical developer over the last year or |
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>> two. More as a business analyst imo, although he's stepped up to provide |
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>> infra for some of the more innovative work that goes on. |
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> |
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> He *is* eligible, but he was removed from the project. This really |
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> needs to be taken into consideration. |
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> |
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As a developer, when you keep insisting that they are very different roles. |
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|
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>> > Has anybody even taken the time to stop and think about someone's |
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>> > actual *legal* capabilities before nominating them? |
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>> > |
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>> I have actually, as I would hope my other nominations would show. Have |
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>> you ever stopped to consider that maybe you're not the best judge of |
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>> qualities you haven't exactly displayed? Or have I missed something and |
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>> you have a pool of qualified lawyers lined up wanting to take on this |
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>> *legal* job? |
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> |
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> How so? Do you have a clue what I have or have not done? Of course |
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> not. Instead, you just feel the need to run your mouth like usual. |
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> Please, continue with the ad hominum attacks. It really helps your |
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> position. |
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> |
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You amaze me: you lower the tone of the discourse with your belligerent |
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comments, state I am "running my mouth as usual" and then wish to accuse me |
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of "ad hominem." |
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|
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I took it as read that no-one was trying to state that the previous Trustees |
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had stepped up to the plate. Anyone who's followed the history will have read |
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many assertions about it not being something the devs were good at, nor would |
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we want them to be. If you're maintaining that all was well with the |
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Foundation, it's an interesting point-of-view. |
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|
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>> > Seriously, technical achievement means *nothing* here. This is purely |
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>> > a staff/financial/legal position we're nominating for... |
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>> > |
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>> Yeah that takes more than just *legal* capability. It also takes |
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>> managerial ability, as well as business expertise, both of which Patrick |
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>> possesses. OFC these are not skills especially prevalent in the |
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>> /technical/ developer pool as the record of your time as Trustee shows. |
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>> It's the same type of skills that drobbins would bring, were he eligible |
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>> to stand. |
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> |
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> No, it really doesn't take any managerial capability. The trustees are |
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> *not* managers. |
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So let's get this straight: Council and devs deal with the technical side |
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(let's call this the software development) and Trustees deal with the |
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"staff/financial/legal" matters. Anywhere else that would be called |
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"organisational" matters, which would need managerial oversight. |
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|
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> They do not tell anyone what to do, nor do they lead |
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> the project in any way. The trustees are paper pushers. I'm sorry if |
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> you don't realize that, but there's only so many times that it can be |
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> said before it becomes obvious that you're either ignoring it, or too |
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> dense to comprehend it. I'll let you decide which. |
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> |
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See below, but thanks for showing the way to keep things civil. Just as |
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feedback to improve this: if you had stopped at "paper pushers," perhaps |
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adding "That's all there is to it," it would have made the point without |
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lowering the tone. |
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|
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>> I believe him to be the kind of person you want helping you manage the |
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>> organisational side of things, which requires people who can empathise |
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>> and motivate, not snipe and whinge at every opportunity. OFC, neither you |
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>> nor anyone else has to vote for Patrick (assuming he'd even want to stand |
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>> after being subject to the first personal attack in this process.) |
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> |
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> Yes, because his organizational skills at organizing FOSDEM for Gentoo |
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> was excellent. In fact, his skills were so good that several developers |
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> got left in the cold for over an hour, waiting for transportation that |
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> Patrick had promised and which never arrived. How about the demo |
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> machines that Patrick lined up for the show? Oh, that's right, SeJo, |
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> pvdabeel, and myself had to do that the day of the show because Patrick |
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> didn't do anything. |
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> |
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Sounds like most of the chief executives I've come across, who are normally |
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reliant on PAs to actually arrange anything. Thank you however for backing up |
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your assertion with reasons: it would have been nice if you had stated this |
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in the first place, instead of just rolling your eyes and expecting us to |
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accept that ebuild developing had anything to do with the Trustees. |
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|
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He's still much better at motivation and empathising with his colleagues. I've |
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seen him help and motivate loads of people, including some of your |
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developers. |
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|
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> Now, you can call it a personal attack if you wish. I hope that you |
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> realize that I don't care what your opinion is on pretty much anything. |
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> While I've been working to improve Gentoo, you sit on the sidelines and |
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> tell everybody how poorly they're doing. |
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I think you have me confused with someone else. |
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|
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> Well, step up or shut up. |
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What does that mean? Somehow becoming a developer on your team has never been |
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very attractive. I've contributed various ebuilds, and helped other users |
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where I can, as well as defending Gentoo as a project; must have missed your |
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motivational seminars in #-dev-help over the last year. I stepped up to offer |
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a fix for your bug that you stated was holding back the new release. Not sure |
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what else you want from a user, especially one you take delight in baiting. |
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|
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> Personal attacks are when one says something that is an attack on a |
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> person or their character. Stating pertinent *facts* about a nominee |
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> seems to me to be something that would be *wanted* but I see that we're |
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> going to have some armchair developers out there screaming that it's a |
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> personal attack just because it puts the person in a bad light. |
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> |
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No, it was the "*rolls eyes*" and a snipe about someone's history as a |
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developer disqualifying them as a Trustee, with no *facts* given which made |
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it sound like a personal attack. Thank you for finally providing some attempt |
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at reasoning, along with your usual ad hominem towards me. |
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|
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> Sure, Patrick has contributed quite a bit via his gentooexperimental |
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> project, but that doesn't change the *facts* of his time as a Gentoo |
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> developer. |
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> |
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I find it more cogent that he has contributed and maintained that |
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infrastructure for innovation, as well as the huge amount of QA for the tree, |
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as something other than a Gentoo dev. The last couple of months has shown |
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that, while Gentoo is fine as a piece of software, as a project there is a |
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serious disconnect with its user base. So it seems that where the project |
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needs new thinking is not really on the technical development side. |
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|
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Perhaps the Trustees should have a wider remit than the one you envision as |
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paper-pushers with a narrow *legal* remit. Although you mention staff |
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relations, and financial matters as well, you seem to be unaware overseeing |
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this requires managerial capability, along the lines drobbins has mentioned. |
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It's not about being a lawyer, an accountant or an HR person: it's about |
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managing them, with an overview of all three, and the impact it has on the |
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people who make the product. |
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|
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Patrick, like drobbins, understands the developer culture. While the |
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discussion may be moot, in that I don't think he wants to stand, the topics |
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we have discussed are relevant: should the Trustees be strictly confined to |
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dealing with legal matters? If so, who is to deal with the other areas, given |
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that developers have enough to do maintaining the software? |
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-- |
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