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On Sat, 2008-05-24 at 17:59 -0400, Richard Freeman wrote: |
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> I'm not going to reply to anything specific in this thread, |
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|
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Then start a new one. This thread exists to get something done. Not to |
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air everyone opinions, thoughts, etc wrt the foundation as a whole. |
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|
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> As a Gentoo user, I could really care less whether Gentoo holds any |
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> tangible assets. As long as there is a server to rsync off of I'm good |
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> to go - and there are lots of people out there willing to contribute |
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> bandwidth because it is for a good cause. |
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|
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Ok, well there are allot of users interested in release media. So your |
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thoughts there? Or what about at an event? Ever been by a Gentoo booth |
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compared to others? Like say FreeBSD? And those rsync servers and |
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bandwidth cost $. |
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|
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> As a Gentoo user, I'd rather see enthusiastic volunteer developers who |
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> are happy to contribute, than to see Gentoo turn into some kind of |
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> corporate atmosphere where those who pay get the features they need (a |
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> la most commercial distros). Sure, it might be a non-profit on paper, |
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> but large non-profits tend to be indistinguishable from commercial |
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> enterprises - neither is really grass-roots. |
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|
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Let's be quick to think the worst, never the best. Your thoughts ensure |
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Gentoo will never be certified on any hardware. We will have no vendor |
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relationships. That we will always be a grass roots hobbyist efforts. |
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|
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What does that say to users that run Gentoo in business and depend on it |
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daily? There are countless big and small business depending on and |
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running Gentoo. Guess those users don't matter. |
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|
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> As a Gentoo user, I'd like devs to listen to my ideas, but I recognize |
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> that I'm getting far more out of Gentoo than I'm putting into it. |
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|
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But devs do not have to listen to users. At this point users have little |
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to no representation or say in anything that isn't relayed or acted upon |
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by a dev that is interested or cares about the users point of view. |
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|
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That's providing devs are even available, on irc, email, etc for users |
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to interact with. Some are only around to commit code and work bugs. |
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Which bugs and any direct emails are the only contact they have with |
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users. |
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|
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> Frankly I'm amazed that so many folks put in so much time to make this |
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> distro really great to run - and I don't have to pay a dime for it! So, |
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> when I want to have things my own way, I don't really expect anybody to |
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> bow to my needs. I think that devs should listen to the collective will |
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> of the users because it is the right thing to do - not because the users |
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> should hold any power over them. |
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|
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Well we get donations and contributions from users. In fact several of |
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our sponsors are sponsors because they are also users. So if we have no |
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users, and we need more gear, bandwidth, etc for you to have fun |
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committing code. Who will provide that? It's a fine balance, like most |
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things in life. |
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|
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> I think that Gentoo should be run by a group of volunteers who are |
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> accountable to the volunteers that contribute (whether staff or devs). |
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|
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Ok, so I guess me being on the board. I am no longer a dev, or a user. |
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Nor am I am volunteer. I guess I am going to get paid at some point? |
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|
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> I'd rather not have a foundation with power over trademark, assets, etc, |
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> threatening to pull the plug or force a fork if the devs or their |
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> elected leadership don't fall in line over some controversy. |
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|
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That is very far fetched and completely negative. |
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|
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> As long as |
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> the Foundation and the Council have a common constituency I'm not too |
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> concerned about this happening, but when the constituencies are |
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> different there is the potential for conflict. |
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|
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There is only conflict if the foundation overstepped it's bounds. Which |
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would not and will not happen. If we could ever make progress in the |
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bylaws we could stipulate such things. Worse case have means for |
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arbitration if there was some issue or etc. But the two will never have |
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equal authority over the same matter. |
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> Personally, I'm not too concerned that Gentoo depends on our sponsors. |
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|
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Sure because they are there. If we lost one, and you could not commit |
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code, or go to g.o, or etc. Then I think you and many others would care. |
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Allot, and very quickly. |
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> I contribute to Gentoo because it is the right thing to do and I'm able |
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> to give back a little of what I'm getting. I suspect most who sponsor |
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> open source projects in various ways do so for the same reason. |
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Maybe you should look into the reasoning behind each of our sponsors. |
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Why they are sponsors I have been looking into that with little success. |
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However there are some that are sponsors only because Gentoo devs work |
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there. When that is no longer the case. I wonder what will happen then. |
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> I'd |
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> rather not see Gentoo turn into some non-profit corporation that pays |
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> its own way - if we're doing the "right thing" then we shouldn't run out |
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> of those willing to help out with a little bandwidth here and there. |
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> And we can always solicit donations if we have some kind of a need. |
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|
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Ok, so Gentoo should be a charity case. And a little bandwidth, funny. |
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Sponsors for infra services start ~$1k a month. Some provide up to 7 |
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times that each month. I love how on one hand, you think everyone within |
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Gentoo is so evil. That a stronger foundation or NPO would lead to all |
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kinds of bad things. Yet you assume people out there, business, are |
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going to give us thousands of dollars a month in services for what |
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exactly? |
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> In my experience one of two things happens to organizations that seek |
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> complete self-sufficiency: They tend to accumulate paid staff rapidly. |
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> The functioning of the organization tends to become focused around the |
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> paid positions. |
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|
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Um you realized the bylaws now have provisions for board members to pay |
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themselves. Which is something I am looking to remove/change. |
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> After all - they're the only ones who always show up at |
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> scheduled meetings and are around 9-5 since they're on payroll. This |
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> tends to make volunteers feel left out, and they tend to leave. |
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Really, that's odd. I have done a fair amount of volunteering. Food |
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kitchens, medical assistance, food relief programs, dog shelters, etc. |
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How about any church out there with a choir, clergy, etc. They all have |
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a mix of paid and non-paid staff. No issues. |
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I love how things that work in allot of places in the world. Won't work |
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for us. Positive thinking surely. |
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|
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> Then |
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> one of two things happen - the organization either dies out, or it is |
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> able to sustain itself in revenue and carries on forever, but usually |
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> with a loss of its originally-intended mission. |
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|
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BS, then the concept of NPO's would have been gone decades ago. Instead |
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they increase all the time. FYI the PGA Tour golf association is a NPO. |
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They have paid and non-paid as well. Those that get paid, some get paid |
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VERY well. But again, no issues, volunteers still show up, do their |
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jobs, etc. |
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> Open source is about community - a community of contributors, not a |
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> community of voters for whom a vote costs nothing, or maybe it costs a |
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> few bucks. |
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|
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Ok, so FOSS is about community, but that community of contributors can't |
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vote or have representation or any say. That makes allot of sense in the |
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same sentence :) |
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> None of us started using gentoo because we got to vote to |
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> make the devs do what we wanted, but rather because we saw that a bunch |
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> of devs had created something that we could really use. Every |
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> successful FOSS project I can think of operates in the same way. |
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Really, so have you looked at Gnome lately? Or what about FreeBSD? Have |
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you looked at any projects of our size or near it? What are you basing |
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your comparisons on? Be specific, providing an opinion with no facts to |
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reinforce it is baseless. |
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> I'd really like to see the Foundation aim to involve more of the |
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> community and point out when the community is neglected. |
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That completely contradicts most of what you have said so far. |
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|
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> However, could |
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> there perhaps be a way to do this without changing the membership |
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> structure. |
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Ok, let me ask this. What is the current membership structure? You do |
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release the proposed bylaws already have two classes of members. |
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> I'm genuinely concerned that this move could have the |
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> long-term results of causing a fork which would be very disruptive (or |
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> maybe not - just look at XFree86). I'd really rather not see this |
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> happen to my favorite distro! |
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Again, let's thing about all the negatives. All the bad things that |
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could happen. That you would even thing a stronger foundation would lead |
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to a fork in Gentoo. That's pretty hilarious. |
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I think Gentoo has come close to forks before and it had 0 to do with |
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the foundation. If something like that occurs, it's for many other |
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reasons. |
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The foundation was created for a purpose years ago. It has never served |
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that purpose, and those that neglected it. Allowed it to be some |
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pathetic thing, that eventually no one was interested in. So yes, by all |
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means let's continue down that path. So when Gentoo has a crisis, there |
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is no one to deal with it. Excellent, and that will keep Gentoo |
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together. |
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Worried about forking huh? If we can't commit code, that will cause a |
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fork right there :) Code will be written, and committed some where. |
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|
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-- |
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William L. Thomson Jr. |
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amd64/Java/Trustees |
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Gentoo Foundation |