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On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 10:07:53PM -0800, Alec Warner wrote: |
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> On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 7:15 PM Andreas K. Hüttel <dilfridge@g.o> |
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> wrote: |
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> (1) I strongly prefer folks to make a good faith effort to work with others. |
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<snip> |
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There has been a steady escalation here by the council and various other |
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developers. So, this is satisfied (or is that subjective of me to |
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assume?). Is there a metric for establishing whether good faith has |
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occured? |
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> (2) I want to make decisions based on shared goals and policies, not |
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> people's personal preferences. |
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No matter how much you want to be objective... we are humans and |
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subjectiveness is a part of that. The CoC is a shared policy... hell, |
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some may even say it isn't as they weren't there to adopt/formalize it. |
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So, there's that. |
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> (3) I want to make decisions based on data. To that end I've tried to |
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> provide some data to clarify some various points. |
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> |
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I don't find the data here relevant. Regardless of |
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who/what/where/when (which is what data will give us)... I want to |
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understand the why. |
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Quite simply, the why is... because people have nothing better to do on |
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a forum meant for something completely different. More on this later. |
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> Also FYI: What about the polish OTW ( |
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> https://forums.gentoo.org/viewforum-f-61.html) |
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> |
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Not really sure what relevance this plays as I do not know Polish. Also, |
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relying on automatic translation of such content, in this context, seems |
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short-sighted. |
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> |
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> > |
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> > Rationale: |
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> > |
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> > * provides zero value to the distribution |
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> > |
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> |
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> I think the OTW forum does provide value. Can you elaborate on why you |
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> think the value is 0? |
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> |
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> For example, forum-mods move offtopic threads from other forums into OTW, |
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> so it serves as a holding bin for those conversations. We could advocate |
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> moving those to the dustbin, but the dustbin is readonly, so threads may |
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> come back. |
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> |
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> In addition there are those who believe that the offtopic nature of OTW |
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> keeps the rest of the forums a nicer cleaner place, and that suppressing |
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> this content can have unintended consequences. So I request that you do |
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> consider the 2nd and 3rd order consequences of this decision. |
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> |
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Pump the breaks. So, you are justifying that they do play a role because |
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it provides a dumping ground for things that *are not* relevant to the |
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forums? |
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Furthermore, it is not suppression. It is ensuring that the nature of |
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the forums is *relevant* to the goal of the forums... which is to support |
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the Gentoo distribution (here comes the subjectiveness). How threads |
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discussing politics, conspiracy theories, or other shenanigans relates |
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to Gentoo's goals is beyond me. |
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FTR, there are threads discussing very dark times in the world's |
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history such as Hitler etc. Are these really things we want our |
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sponsors' monies/hardware and our donations going to support? Are we |
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really being good stewards of the monies, hardware, etc donated to |
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further our cause as a distro? |
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Maybe our donors are objective too, but I doubt they would be happy with |
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such a situation. |
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> * large parts of the content are toxic and not something I (and others) wish |
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> > Gentoo to be associated with |
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<snip> |
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The argument from our "elected" official is very valid. Isn't that what |
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he is there for? He has to be subjective, but he has also publically |
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stated on many mediums *why* OTW is bad for us. Additionally, many |
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others agree. |
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Policies are great, but you cannot legislate common sense (which IMHO is |
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where subjectiveness plays a role). Attempting to delineate every |
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possible scenario of things we deem "not OK" is asinine. This is what |
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the CoC is for and why we have an elected council to interpret |
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it/enforce it (along with COMREL). |
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This brings up a larger point. I am sure there are many developers who |
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would argue with COMREL and/or the Council regarding their |
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subjectiveness to forcibly retire them. Should we do away with the |
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council too? It's a slippery slope toward objectiveness. |
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> > * it caters to a set of users somewhat distinct from the rest of the forums |
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> > (e.g., >5000 posts in OTW, <100 elsewhere) |
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> > |
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> |
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> According to what data? |
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> |
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> Looking at the past year: |
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> select COUNT(*) as cnt, IF(phpbb_posts.forum_id=10,true, false) as forum, |
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> phpbb_users.user_id as user from phpbb_users INNER JOIN phpbb_posts ON |
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> phpbb_posts.poster_id=phpbb_users.user_id where phpbb_posts.post_time > |
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> UNIX_TIMESTAMP(DATE_SUB(CURDATE(), INTERVAL 365 DAY)) and |
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> phpbb_posts.poster_id IN (select DISTINCT(poster_id) from phpbb_posts where |
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<snip> |
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Cool data. The problem is the *why*. None of this content, regardless of |
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who/what/where/when is relevant to us as a distro. |
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<snip> |
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> sailed after repeated failed attempts at gaining that support. |
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> |
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So, like, what is your counter proposal or proposal here? You seem to be |
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playing a "devils advocate", but have very strong opinions on why Andreas is |
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wrong in his approach. |
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So, what would Alec do? |
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-- |
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Cheers, |
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Aaron |
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