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On 2020.12.12 13:24, Michał Górny wrote: |
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> On Tue, 2020-12-01 at 05:15 +0200, Andreas K. Hüttel wrote: |
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> > This leaves us with two options: |
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> > |
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> > 1) shut down OTW |
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> > or |
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> > 2) replace or supplement forum moderators with people willing to |
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> > fulfill the |
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> > moderator role in OTW |
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> > |
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> > I dont see 2) happen (for the simple reasons |
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> > * that it will be difficult to find someone to do the work |
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> > * and that noone has volunteered to do it over the past year |
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> > ), so 1) it is. |
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> > |
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> |
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> The more I think about it, the more this seems to resemble gentoo-dev |
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> moderation. |
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> |
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> To recap, we've closed down gentoo-dev to public because of a few |
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> people misbehaving. This was the wrong solution to the problem, |
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> and in my opinion -- and I say that as someone who originally pushed |
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> for it and then regretted it -- this has done more harm than good. |
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> It did not solve the problem, and it has done harm to our community. |
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> In the end, the problematic individual was banned anyway, and the list |
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> was reopened. |
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> |
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> I feel like the whole OTW situation is similar. OTW is not the root |
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> of |
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> the problem, it is just its biggest symptom. I feel that we're trying |
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> to eliminate one symptom and hoping that would be enough to cure |
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> the disease. Sure, that works for a common cold but I think it's |
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> a long shot for the Forums situation. |
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> |
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> Andreas is right that replacing Forum moderators isn't easy. However, |
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> if we leave things as-is and just apply a drive-through band-aid, |
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> the problem will return in one form or another. I know that political |
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> correctness asks us to discuss problems, not people -- but what *if* |
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> people are the problem? I really feel like we should not be |
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> discussing |
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> 'applying this or that band-aid to Forums' but 'saying "thank you" to |
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> our Forums team and starting over'. |
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> |
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> Sure, it will take some time before a new team forms, from people |
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> actually willing to keep Forums a quality ground for everyone. It |
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> might be necessary to disable the most problematic Forums for the time |
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> being, or even the new team may decide not to have such a forum at |
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> all. |
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> The experience with many projects inside Gentoo proves that once |
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> the most problematic people left the project or were forcibly removed |
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> from it, long-defunct projects started thriving again. I don't see |
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> why |
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> the same couldn't work for Forums. |
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> |
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> I don't feel like us arbitrarily making decisions Forums team |
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> disagrees |
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> with and then hoping that things will work out is right. If Forums |
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> team does not have the best Gentoo interest at heart (and I feel like |
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> at least some of the Forum moderators have lost contact with 'Gentoo |
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> the distribution' a long time ago), then it is time to make a new |
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> Forums team. A team that cares about Forums benefitting Gentoo users |
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> more than about chit-chatting with their buddies from the old days. |
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> |
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> |
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> -- |
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> Best regards, |
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> Michał Górny |
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> |
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> |
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> |
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> |
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> |
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My view is that its more like the original Proctors project than the |
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-dev ml but I see the parallels you draw. |
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|
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The original Proctors project was created by the council of the day to |
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be a quick reaction short slap response team to CoC violations. |
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Then one day, a council member did something to get slapped. |
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Instead of calming down and reflecting on events, by which time, the |
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slap would have worn off, said council member appealed directly to |
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council and managed to get the Proctors disbanded. |
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|
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That sent the message to the community that the CoC did not apply |
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to council members. The CoC has never recovered. |
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|
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Now we have a council member appealing directly to council again ... |
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that sends the message to the community, yet again, that the |
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processes that council are supposed to enforce don't apply to council |
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members. |
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Will the damage from that message ever be undone? |
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|
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As to potential solutions to perceived problems, we are going to apply |
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any fix in one planned well publicised sequence of events, exactly |
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once. Not piecemeal by council knee-jerk reaction votes month |
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after month. |
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|
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The first step in that process is for all interested parties to compile |
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a comprehensive problem statement, encompassing all the perceived |
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problems (real or not). So far, several months after the original post to |
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the closed list, nothing like that exists. |
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|
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Should anyone be too shy to post in public, I'll offer to do the |
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compilation based on signed emails to my gentoo address. |
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|
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It's time to put up or shut up. |
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|
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-- |
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Regards, |
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|
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Roy Bamford |
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(Neddyseagoon) a member of |
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elections |
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gentoo-ops |
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forum-mods |
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arm64 |