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On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:26 PM, Michał Górny <mgorny@g.o> wrote: |
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> W dniu nie, 03.12.2017 o godzinie 13∶52 -0500, użytkownik Alec Warner |
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> napisał: |
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> > On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 6:18 PM, Michał Górny <mgorny@g.o> wrote: |
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> > |
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> > > Hello, everyone. |
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> > > |
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> > > This is something that's been talked about privately a lot lately but |
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> it |
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> > > seems that nobody went forward to put things into motion. SO here's |
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> > > a proposal that aims to improve the condition of our mailing lists |
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> > > and solve some of the problems they are facing today. |
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> > > |
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> > > |
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> > > Problems |
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> > > ======== |
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> > > |
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> > > Currently the developer-oriented mailing lists gentoo-dev and gentoo- |
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> > > project are open to posting by everyone. While this has been generally |
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> > > beneficial, we seem to be having major problems with some |
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> > > of the posters for more than a year. Off hand, I can think of three: |
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> > > |
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> > > 1. Repeating attacks against Gentoo and/or Gentoo developers (including |
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> > > pure personal attacks). While it is understandable that some people may |
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> > > be frustrated and need to vent off, repeating attacks from the same |
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> > > person are seriously demotivating to everyone. |
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> > > |
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> > > 2. Frequent off-topics, often irrelevant to the thread at hand. |
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> > > I understand that some of those topics are really interesting but it is |
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> > > really time-consuming to filter through all the off-topic mails |
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> > > in search of data relevant to the topic at hand. What's worst, |
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> sometimes |
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> > > you don't even get a single on-topic reply. |
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> > > |
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> > > 3. Support requests. Some of our 'expert users' have been abusing |
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> > > the mailing lists to request support (because it's easier to ask |
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> > > everyone than go through proper channels) and/or complain about bug |
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> > > resolutions. This is a minor issue but still it is one. |
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> > > |
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> > > |
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> > > All of those issues are slowly rendering the mailing lists impossible |
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> to |
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> > > use. People waste a lot of time trying to gather feedback, and get |
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> > > demotivated in the process. A steadily growing number of developers |
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> > > either stop reading the mailing lists altogether, or reduce their |
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> > > activity. |
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> > > |
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> > > For example, eclass reviews usually don't get more than one reply, |
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> > > and even that is not always on-topic. And after all, getting this kind |
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> > > of feedback is one of the purposes of the -dev mailing list! |
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> > |
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> > |
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> > > |
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> > > Proposal |
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> > > ======== |
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> > > |
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> > > Give the failure of other solutions tried for this, I'd like to |
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> > > establish the following changes to the mailing lists: |
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> > > |
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> > > 1. Posting to gentoo-dev@ and gentoo-project@ mailing lists will be |
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> > > initially restricted to active Gentoo developers. |
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> > > |
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> > > 1a. Subscription (reading) and archives will still be open. |
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> > > |
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> > > 1b. Active Gentoo contributors will be able to obtain posting access |
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> > > upon being vouched for by an active Gentoo developer. |
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> > |
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> > |
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> > > 2. A new mailing list 'gentoo-expert' will be formed to provide |
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> > > a discussion medium for expert Gentoo users and developers. |
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> > > |
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> > > 2a. gentoo-expert will have open posting access like gentoo-dev has |
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> now. |
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> > > |
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> > > |
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> > > Rationale |
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> > > ========= |
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> > > |
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> > > I expect that some of you will find this a drastic measure. However, I |
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> > > would like to point out that I believe we've already exhausted all |
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> other |
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> > > options to no avail. |
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> > > |
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> > > The problems of more abusive behavior from some of the mailing list |
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> > > members have been reported to ComRel numerous times. After the failure |
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> > > of initial enforcement, I'm not aware of ComRel doing anything to solve |
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> > > the problem. The main arguments I've heard from ComRel members were: |
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> > > |
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> > > A. Bans can be trivially evaded, and history proves that those evasions |
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> > > create more noise than leaving the issue as is. |
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> > > |
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> > > B. People should be allowed to express their opinion [even if it's pure |
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> > > hate speech that carries no value to anyone]. |
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> > > |
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> > > C. The replies of Gentoo developers were worse [no surprise that people |
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> > > lose their patience after being attacked for a few months]. |
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> > > |
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> > |
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> > A B and C would equally apply to the "gentoo-dev" list you are proposing. |
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> > The only difference is |
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> > that there is some 'vetting' process for people who are allowed to post. |
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> > But lets say hyptothetically |
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> > Alec is an active contributor and is posting spammily to the gentoo-dev |
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> > list. If ComRel will not take any action |
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> > (due to A B and C) what is the difference to the status quo? |
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> |
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> Well, I believe the main difference is that the approval process makes |
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> it harder to evade a ban. |
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> |
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> If you need a voice, you need to get a developer to vouch for you. |
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> If you have just been banned, you won't immediately regain the access |
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> for the same identity. And unless you've actively maintaining a second |
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> identity for yourself, you won't get immediate access to evade the ban. |
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> |
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Oh it was not clear we would ban people from the proposed 'gentoo-dev' list |
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based on your proposal. |
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Is someone (Comrel?) willing to do that? |
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> |
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> Yes, it only solves the problem temporarily. However, 'temporarily' is |
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> sometimes enough to avoid the immediate 'shitstorm' (I'm sorry for |
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> lacking a better word for it) that results in some people not being able |
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> to accept their ban. |
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I tend to agree with the above; but that being said: |
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This still feels like a half-measure? Until the community is willing to |
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part with some of the contributors who "add value" but who act |
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inappropriately...I'm not sure the half-measures are sufficient. At some |
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point we must say "we value a community that is safe more than individual |
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contributors". We certainly see some measure of the negatively in terms of |
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recruitment volume (people not joining due to the process, or due to the |
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hostile development environment) as well as the developers who contribute |
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less or leave entirely. |
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Are the contributions of these "inappropriate" contributors really so |
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necessary for the operation of Gentoo? Perhaps if we improved the community |
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(by enforcing the standards we already have) we might increase our |
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developer ranks by tapping into the people who have been turned off by the |
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past behavior of the community. |
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-A |
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> As for point B, I believe that there is also a serious difference when |
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> the user is pointed to another channel where he can express his opinion |
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> freely. |
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> > This isn't to say I advocate against trying, but it might just end up the |
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> > same as today. |
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> > |
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> > |
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> > > |
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> > > The alternative suggested by ComRel pretty much boiled down to 'ignore |
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> > > the trolls'. While we can see this is actually starting to happen right |
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> > > now (even the most determined developers stopped replying), this |
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> doesn't |
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> > > really solve the problem because: |
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> > > |
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> > > I. Some people are really determined and continue sending mails even if |
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> > > nobody replies to them. In fact, they are perfectly capable of replying |
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> > > to themselves. |
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> > > |
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> > > II. This practically assumes that every new mailing list subscriber |
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> will |
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> > > be able to recognize the problem. Otherwise, new people will repeatedly |
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> > > be lured into discussing with them. |
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> > > |
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> > > III. In the end, it puts Gentoo in a bad position. Firstly, because it |
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> > > silently consents to misbehavior on the mailing lists. Secondly, |
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> because |
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> > > the lack of any statement in reply to accusations could be seen |
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> > > as a sign of shameful silent admittance. |
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> > > |
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> > |
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> > So now we only silently consent to misbehavior on mailing lists besides |
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> > 'gentoo-dev'? |
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> |
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> Yes, that's pretty much the idea. I have failed to convince people who |
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> could solve the problem to do so. So I'm falling back to cleaning up my |
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> own backyard to at least solve one part of the problem that particularly |
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> bothers me. |
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> |
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> -- |
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> Best regards, |
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> Michał Górny |
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> |
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> |
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> |