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On 12/07/2016 01:05 AM, Michał Górny wrote: |
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> On Tue, 6 Dec 2016 23:24:22 -0800 |
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> Daniel Campbell <zlg@g.o> wrote: |
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> |
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>> On 12/06/2016 11:15 AM, Seemant Kulleen wrote: |
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>>> The larger philosophical question is: Are we seriously banning people as |
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>>> a community? What sort of community are we, in fact? |
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>> |
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>> I think that's largely speaking for itself here. |
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>> |
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>> It's clear that (a lack of) communication in this case and in Ian's did |
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>> not prove to be fruitful. I hope Gentoo can improve in its community |
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>> management in the future. |
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>> |
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>> I did not respond to William's e-mails mostly because they were |
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>> off-topic in my thread, but I hold no ill will against him and feel he's |
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>> just as entitled to a voice as anyone else. I think we're doing Gentoo a |
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>> disservice (especially in Java land) by not having him help us. I |
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>> disagree both with the decision to ban him (to outside readers: the |
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>> greater developer community was not asked for their opinion) and the |
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>> manner that William made his points (it was too much, too often). |
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>> |
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>> These happenings have severely dampened my view of the management within |
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>> Gentoo and I will be voting accordingly next year. |
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> |
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> You should really have tried working with him before forming |
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> an opinion. Let me put up a few facts for you. Some people may actually |
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> end up seeing some similarity between the two incidents. |
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|
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To be fair, his exclusion from Gentoo kinda prevents me from having the |
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opportunity to work with him -- at least on Gentoo-related things. That |
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said, I'm open to any new information or facts presented. Before we get |
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into nitty gritty I want to thank you for taking the time and |
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consideration to reply so thoroughly and civilly. |
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> |
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> First of all, William's technical competencies were, to say, lacking. |
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> He may be very good in Java land but he is lacking in basic shell, not |
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> to mention ebuild. His ebuilds end up doing the kind of three-flip |
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> workaround for issues he himself introduced. If he was left to commit |
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> freely, other people will end up having a lot of work cleaning up |
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> after him. |
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> |
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> Of course, every deficiency can be solved if one wants to learn. |
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> However, William more than once shown that he's stuck in some point |
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> in the past and refuses to move forward. If you try to teach him, soon |
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> enough he's going to change to subject to either how important he is |
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> (and therefore he doesn't need to learn, you should fix stuff you |
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> think he does wrong), how bad Gentoo is these days or plainly to |
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> offending you. I think you have seen a fair sample of that on the ml |
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> lately. |
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> |
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> So no, William is not suitable for commit access to ::gentoo. We really |
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> don't have the manpower to fix all those issues, and I'm already tired |
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> enough after one ex-developer leaving packages that could have never |
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> worked (i.e. ebuilds that simply end up tripping on some 'die' |
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> in the eclass that was always there) -- and we (the Python team) kept |
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> hitting on those even a year later. |
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|
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Are we talking the sort of errors that a quick bug report and/or IRC |
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ping should be able to fix, or a severe QA report that we all know we |
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shouldn't do (like something covered in the quizzes?). Regardless, it |
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seems fair to expect someone to be receptive (and hopefully learn |
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something) when they screw up. I agree that we can't have people at |
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Gentoo who aren't able to see flaws in their work and try to correct |
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them. Creating work for other devs is counteractive to our goals. |
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|
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Would you or someone else be willing to show a few bug reports or |
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examples of things he's done that caused us a headache? I'd search |
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myself, but I don't really have much to go on. |
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|
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> Finally, William tends to harass people who step on his toe, which can |
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> happen pretty easily (i.e. via attempting to make him learn, see |
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> above). If you do, you can expect to be privately and publicly harassed |
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> for quite some time, at least to the point when he switches to |
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> harassing someone else. |
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> |
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> Believe it, it's really not nice or productive to be highlighted every |
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> 15 minutes by some irrelevant, jerky comment. Or be a topic of every |
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> fourth mail. If you don't believe, you should try it. |
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|
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Oh, I fully understand that. I've not been on the business end of that |
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particularly, but interruptions are a huge pain when you're trying to |
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focus on anything relating to code. I hope that we agree on that one. :) |
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> |
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> As a side note, I should point out that we already had a similar case |
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> in the past. I don't know if William would resort to that as well but |
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> the other person even went as far as lying to other Gentoo users |
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> and making them harass you privately. |
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> |
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> So yes, maybe Java lost some. Gentoo may have lost a few potential |
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> developers too. However, I believe that Gentoo was saved from a major |
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> loss of developers and contributors which has already happened once due |
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> to the previous person mentioned, and I'm pretty sure would follow |
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> William's staying longer with us. |
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> |
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> Hope this clears all the missing facts. I should point out that it's my |
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> personal opinion, based on what I've seen and heard. Hope I didn't |
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> betray anyone's confidentiality. |
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> |
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|
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I think you've helped me see a bit more of the picture. I'm reluctant to |
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turn anyone away; I trust our usual methods of contributing are still |
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open to him (as they are for everyone else), should he have a change of |
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mind or heart. My thoughts on management remain, and I think better |
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information sharing (facts, evidence) can prevent huge threads like this |
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from happening. If further evidence confirms William's behavior then |
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I'll have to retract my statement regarding his contributing capacity. |
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|
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Thanks again for sharing with me. |
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-- |
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Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer |
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OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net |
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fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C 1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6 |