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Roy Bamford wrote: |
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|
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> Rémi Cardona wrote: |
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>> Seriously, let's stop. |
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>> |
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>> This endless debate has gone on for waaay too long and it is just |
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>> plain |
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>> spam now. |
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> |
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> [snip] |
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> |
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>> Let's just all agree we've failed to reach a consensus and let's |
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>> spend time on something else. |
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> |
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I agree it's tiresome. |
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> |
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> I think that GLEP55 has failed so far because it has always been |
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> inadequately documented in the GLEP. |
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> |
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If the problem had been adequately communicated in the first place |
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(which is pretty much required for any proposal ime) instead of people |
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being told they "don't understand so go away" we could have agreed |
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then, that the issue was simply about knowing the EAPI before sourcing. |
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|
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As it is, we _finally_ have grudging submission that tightening the PMS |
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to reflect QA reality works but is not "the best solution." |
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|
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> The problem won't be addressed by spending time on something else. |
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> The one big problem needs to be broken down recursively into smaller |
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> problems that can be addressed individually, rather like a very old |
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> asteriods game. |
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> |
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Let's do that with a statement made in objection to just doing what |
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we're doing: |
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< ciaranm> NeddySeagoon: objectively, you have to either not change |
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version format rules ever, or force the package manager to open() every |
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ebuild rather than no ebuilds before it can find the best version of |
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something |
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|
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(Even though the case for changing version format has not been made, the |
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argument applies to the other incompatible changes affecting global |
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environment.) |
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|
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Firstly, and most significantly, this only applies when the mangler does |
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not have the ebuild metadata in cache. Bear in mind portage automatically |
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caches overlays under /var/cache/edb, and that we distribute a metadata |
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cache via rsync for the main tree, so interactive performance does not |
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suffer in any event. |
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|
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Cache design is open to improvement. Once we've broken encapsulation, we |
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cannot take it back. And it WILL lead to maintenance headaches. |
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|
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Secondly, for the mangler to determine the "best-visible", EAPI is not the |
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only item under consideration. So again, there is a lie implicit: whether |
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from cache or from file, the mangler will ALWAYS need some metadata on the |
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ebuilds; CPV + EAPI is insufficient. |
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|
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At very best, all EAPI in filename (wherever it is) does, is limit the set |
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of ebuilds to those with a supported EAPI before the cache has to be |
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consulted. For Gentoo users (who update as recommended) using Gentoo |
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product, that's _every_ ebuild in the tree and overlays. |
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|
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So what practically are we accomplishing for our users? |
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|
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And how much developer time would be wasted to do so, and indeed has already |
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been wasted on this? Time that could be spent improving the cache, binhost |
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support, completing the ebuild spec, writing ebuilds, or just having a |
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life. ;) |
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|
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[There's no reason a repo providing an overlay couldn't use an eapi file |
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the same as profiles (sorry I don't know if this is already done) for |
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experimental herd stuff.] |
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|
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> If we get a solution, Gentoo can be first into the future again, if |
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> not, we will always be last out of the past. |
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> |
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> Gentoo needs a way to introduce new features without waiting over a |
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> year to provide backwards compatibility. |
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> |
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We already have it. |
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|
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We just can't allow a new, incompatible EAPI until we have an upgrade |
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path agreed for people on older versions of portage than 2.2 whenever |
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that EAPI comes out. |
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|
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Or we just agree that we're not bothered if they get not-so-friendly |
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error messages for ebuilds from overlays which happen to use the new |
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EAPI. After all, most people will be using the cache; it's important |
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to remember that, and that in that case, no sourcing will happen in |
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any event, and nor will any of those error messages. If they need an |
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ebuild using an unsupported EAPI, they'll get the "unsupported EAPI" |
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message. |
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|
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If not, they get a grotty error message; so what? It's not going to break |
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anything and presumably they'd be on a deprecated profile in any case, so |
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would already have been shouted at in no uncertain terms about upgrading, |
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along with a url to consult. |
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|
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The real problem that is glaringly obvious to any external is the process |
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that allows Gentoo to be deflected from its strategic interests for over a |
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year on a technically-lamentable proposal. I for one would like to know how |
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prospective Council members intend to address that. |
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|
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(If you don't think it is a problem, please feel free to say so /without/ |
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resorting to insult over reason. If you think the proposal had merit: how |
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come we've only now got agreement that easily-extractable EAPI works?) |
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|
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-- |
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#friendly-coders -- We're friendly but we're not /that/ friendly ;-) |