Re: Shutting down the Off the Wall (was: Re: [gentoo-project] Call for agenda items ...)

[Geoffrey Ekman]

If there is one thing I will say as an outsider, an advocate from a corp.
 I think we all agree that we need to address
this problem because we believe in the values Gentoo is known for but we
can only do this together.

No we don't all agree, my opinion is of my own and not that of my company. However, the only problem you are trying to accomplish is trying to get rid of the freedom of gentoo. Since when has gentoo provided a value statement and guidelines to adhere to for the use of software outside of what is already packaged and the licenses therein?

If this is the future of gentoo I think a lot of us in the real world will create something better and release that truelly free, with free speech on message boards.


________________________________
From: Thomas Deutschmann <whissi@g.o>
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2020 02:39
To: gentoo-project@l.g.o
Subject: Re: Shutting down the Off the Wall (was: Re: [gentoo-project] Call for agenda items ...)

Hi,

On 2020-12-12 02:07, Roy Bamford wrote:
> Does your post represent the council considered opinion or only
> your own?

At the moment I am speaking for myself.


> Its a reasonable problem statement that the forums team can
> work with to devise potential solutions. I discussed something
> similar with dilfridge and k_f at FOSDEM 2019.
>
> I have a major concern with the concept of the council
> deciding to close any part of the forum. Its like this ...
> At present, Gentoo is a common carrier, like the mail.
> The content of letters and parcels is of little concern to the
> carrier.
>
> Gentoos status could be changed by a council decision to
> close any part of the forum from common carrier to publisher,
> were the council seen to be exercising editorial control.
> Being a publisher makes Gentoo liable for the published
> content. Gentoo could not run the forums at all under those
> conditions.
>
> Getting legal advice on that point and taking on the
> resulting  legal liabilities that result is a job for the
> Foundation, not the council.
>
> [...]
>
> Can the council provide a problem statement that a least
> a majority of the members support?

Let's cool down the heated debate a bit.

Anyone can bring up a topic to council at anytime. This also applies to
council members and nothing else has happened yet.

I don't get your reference. Like said, this is not about free speech.
Not about section 230 currently discussed in the US:

We as Gentoo community have created our code of conduct.

The code of conduct we created should protect our values.

This has nothing to do with liability. It doesn't matter if anything
which happened violates any law applying to Gentoo foundation or not.

This is about our 'own' law we gave ourselves to protect the values we
believe in to run this Linux distribution and how we want to treat each
other while doing what we love.

Don't you believe in our code of conduct?

Don't you agree that from time to time, especially those active in the
OTW forum adopt the wrong tone and tend to offend people?

I think you do. Like I hope every community member do.

The current motion is about those few people (<20!) who don't. All of
them will have the chance to change their behavior in case they really
share our values. If they don't, those people no longer have a place in
our community.

And that's also why I think you don't need any statement:

A community member like you and me brought to everyone's attention that
there's a place in Gentoo forums where a minority of people violates our
code of conduct from time to time and want to stop that (and not for the
first time but hopefully for the last time!).

We are currently in the process to find a solution for this. And
everyone in Gentoo is invited to join and help with that problem.
Especially the current forums team who usually do a great job.

Of course, if nobody comes up with another, working, solution, like
said, we will have no choice but to close it.

Please join the process. I think we all agree that we need to address
this problem because we believe in the values Gentoo is known for but we
can only do this together.


--
Regards,
Thomas Deutschmann / Gentoo Linux Developer
C4DD 695F A713 8F24 2AA1 5638 5849 7EE5 1D5D 74A5

________________________________
From: Thomas Deutschmann <whissi@g.o>
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2020 02:39
To: gentoo-project@l.g.o
Subject: Re: Shutting down the Off the Wall (was: Re: [gentoo-project] Call for agenda items ...)

Hi,

On 2020-12-12 02:07, Roy Bamford wrote:
> Does your post represent the council considered opinion or only
> your own?

At the moment I am speaking for myself.


> Its a reasonable problem statement that the forums team can
> work with to devise potential solutions. I discussed something
> similar with dilfridge and k_f at FOSDEM 2019.
>
> I have a major concern with the concept of the council
> deciding to close any part of the forum. Its like this ...
> At present, Gentoo is a common carrier, like the mail.
> The content of letters and parcels is of little concern to the
> carrier.
>
> Gentoos status could be changed by a council decision to
> close any part of the forum from common carrier to publisher,
> were the council seen to be exercising editorial control.
> Being a publisher makes Gentoo liable for the published
> content. Gentoo could not run the forums at all under those
> conditions.
>
> Getting legal advice on that point and taking on the
> resulting  legal liabilities that result is a job for the
> Foundation, not the council.
 >
 > [...]
 >
 > Can the council provide a problem statement that a least
 > a majority of the members support?

Let's cool down the heated debate a bit.

Anyone can bring up a topic to council at anytime. This also applies to
council members and nothing else has happened yet.

I don't get your reference. Like said, this is not about free speech.
Not about section 230 currently discussed in the US:

We as Gentoo community have created our code of conduct.

The code of conduct we created should protect our values.

This has nothing to do with liability. It doesn't matter if anything
which happened violates any law applying to Gentoo foundation or not.

This is about our 'own' law we gave ourselves to protect the values we
believe in to run this Linux distribution and how we want to treat each
other while doing what we love.

Don't you believe in our code of conduct?

Don't you agree that from time to time, especially those active in the
OTW forum adopt the wrong tone and tend to offend people?

I think you do. Like I hope every community member do.

The current motion is about those few people (<20!) who don't. All of
them will have the chance to change their behavior in case they really
share our values. If they don't, those people no longer have a place in
our community.

And that's also why I think you don't need any statement:

A community member like you and me brought to everyone's attention that
there's a place in Gentoo forums where a minority of people violates our
code of conduct from time to time and want to stop that (and not for the
first time but hopefully for the last time!).

We are currently in the process to find a solution for this. And
everyone in Gentoo is invited to join and help with that problem.
Especially the current forums team who usually do a great job.

Of course, if nobody comes up with another, working, solution, like
said, we will have no choice but to close it.

Please join the process. I think we all agree that we need to address
this problem because we believe in the values Gentoo is known for but we
can only do this together.


--
Regards,
Thomas Deutschmann / Gentoo Linux Developer
C4DD 695F A713 8F24 2AA1 5638 5849 7EE5 1D5D 74A5