Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-nfp] 2021 Trustees election

[Matt Turner]

On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 6:50 PM Aaron Bauman <bman@g.o> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 06:12:42PM -0700, Matt Turner wrote:
> > On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 3:27 PM Aaron Bauman <bman@g.o> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 02:57:38PM -0700, Matt Turner wrote:
> > > > On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 2:32 PM Micha?? Górny <mgorny@g.o> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > In fact you didn't, and that is not the perception I was left with
> > from our conversation. I suggest that you reread our conversation,
> > because I don't think you have an accurate memory of it.
> >
> > 18:25 <@   mattst88> | I'm also disappointed that some Trustees that
> > were elected on a platform of merging the Foundation into an
> > umbrella... don't seem to have done anything towards that goal
> > 18:25 <FreedomBear> | mattst88: It is a long process...
> > 18:25 <FreedomBear> | mattst88: of course, I think some opinions have changed :)
> > 18:26 <@   mattst88> | It is, but I see mgorny (not a Trustee)
> > reaching out to umbrella orgs, not Trustees
> > 18:26 <FreedomBear> | mattst88: he requested to do so and it was
> > approved by the trustees.
> > 18:26 <@   mattst88> | I think he took the initiative because it
> > wasn't happening otherwise
> > 18:26 <@FreedomBear> | Fair enough.
> >
>
> There was much more to the conversation than just this. Please don't
> pick and choose what you present.

I don't think I'm misrepresenting the conversation, but you seem to be
ignoring my point.

> > Obviously the financial work Robin has done is valuable and necessary
> > if we're to merge into an umbrella organization. I was not referring
> > to him when I wrote the first line in that snippet.
> >
>
> The entire year was focused on righting taxes. This was clearly
> communicated through several bugs, emails (from the Foundation
> president), #gentoo-trustees, and -nfp mails. There are some emails
> which go to trustees@ but these are not public and are communications
> with the tax people.

So for example, since September 2020 until the emails about the start
of the election process, there was only one email on this list, as far
as I can tell -- saying that the taxes have been filed.

I think we can probably agree that neither Bugzilla nor IRC are really
a sufficient mechanism for communicating Foundation activity.

> > At no point in the conversation did you give an HTTP link. You said
> > basically: it's on the Wiki and Bugzilla. Before today, there were
> > only two minor edits to
> > https://wiki.gentoo.org/index.php?title=Foundation:FoundationFutureState
> > since September 2020. Is that an accurate picture of the Trustees'
> > progress? I have no idea.
> >
>
> It is all out there. Go look for it... or ask for a specific link. I did
> ask what else could be done to smooth communication. If asked, I would
> have provided a direct link.

Please provide a link to something that documents the Foundation's
activities in, say, the last six months.

> > There are no non-trivial changes to
> > https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Foundation:Main_Page this year. The
> > https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Foundation:Main_Page#Board_Minutes
> > section ends in 2018 with no explanation as to why.
> >
> > The Foundation:Main_Page doesn't even have an accurate "Last elected"
> > date for the President.
> >
>
> I think this is accurate as he has served consecutive terms.

It's funny you say that. The officers are elected each year at the
AGM. If I guess that there's a 2020/ directory (since there's no link)
I find https://projects.gentoo.org/foundation/2020/20200822.log.txt
where the Trustees voted to continue with the current officers. The
last elected field is updated when any other Gentoo project has an
lead election; I see no reason why the Foundation should be different.

You didn't address the other points made in the text you quoted.

> > I'm unsure what you find disagreeable about what I said?
> >
>
> It is the manner in which you do it. You throw stones instead of asking
> questions or requesting information. If you care enough... ask. I was
> more than willing to support with my broad offer and request to
> facilitate better communications as seen on IRC.

I'm not doing that, and I'm sorry if somehow my email made you think
that's what I'm doing.

And, okay, I have asked.

> > On IRC I asked how I could follow what the Trustees do, and you said:
> >
> > 18:32 <@   mattst88> | right. I meant, is there evidence of activity?
> > presumably I can't just add myself to the trustees@ alias, so if I
> > wanted to follow along I should... watch bugzilla?
> > 18:33 <FreedomBear> | mattst88: bugzilla for sure. Wiki has the
> > account information.
> >
> > But I'm not sure if Bugzilla contains everything. Presumably not. For
> > example, it seems that a Trustee contacted the Linux Foundation in
> > February and March [1]. I only learned about that because I saw
> > robbat2 ask alicef in #gentoo-dev to summarize it for the Wiki. Robin
> > added a bunch of information to that page today, and that's great, but
> > probably insufficient as a general strategy for keeping Foundation
> > members informed.
> >
>
> So, you would like a better flow of information. That is fair and should
> be addressed.

Yes, this is what I said on IRC as well.

> > > Yet, here you are publically tossing out false information based on
> > > your imperfect perception.
> >
> > It's probably not a great strategy to scold people for not knowing
> > what you know, when you're failing to document what you know...
> >
>
> See above.
>
> > Anway, I'm not sure what's false about my statement, but this is kind
> > of my point precisely!
> >
> > I don't know what the Trustees do. I don't mean in general; I know you
> > approve funds, etc. But like, what things have you actually done in
> > the last $timeframe?
> >
>
> Do you have some specific question? Do you think we should be doing
> other things than what we are tasked with as a Foundation? Do you have a
> recommendation?

Yes, I would specifically like some information on the progress and
next steps towards dissolving the Foundation.

> > The Council has monthly meetings with logs and summaries. Trustees
> > have one annual meeting. Obviously the Trustees do things between
> > annual meetings. How can anyone stay informed?
> >
>
> This is understandable, they have a need for such things as day-to-day
> project requirements drive such meeting frequency.
>
> Do you think the trustees should meet monthly? We have done this before,
> but it was not very productive as most tasks, outside of approving
> funds, are longer term.

Maybe just a monthly email that gives some insight into what's going
on. The X.Org Board (which successfully merged their foundation into
SPI) has meetings and provides summaries:
https://www.x.org/wiki/BoardOfDirectors/MeetingSummaries/

Many of the meetings have a bunch of "no updates" status, and maybe
the meetings are a waste of time in that case, but at least the
information that is provided is sufficient for someone casually
following along to be informed well enough to notice a problem.

E.g., in January I asked the X.Org Board what was going on with a
particular item that didn't seem to progress. I was able to pull out
status updates for ~15 months worth of meetings and draw some
conclusions.

So what's happening with the progress of dissolving the Foundation? I
think it's impossible to tell with the information currently
available.

I tried doing some monthly update emails for the Gentoo X11 project,
and while I ran out of steam and didn't continue for long, many people
did tell me that they enjoyed reading them and learning about what was
going on in the project. I think there is value in the Foundation
doing something similar.

> > Maybe you could just clearly state what you've done towards the goal
> > of merging the Foundation into an umbrella org? (I thought that at
> > least at one point you were against that, so I'm not even completely
> > sure of your position!) Maybe you're all working tirelessly to this
> > end, but if you are, I'm almost completely unaware of it, and I don't
> > think that's for lack of attention on my part.
> >
>
> I have not done anything to assist in dissolving the Foundation as a
> trustee. I don't agree that an umbrella is right for Gentoo. We can
> discuss this further on another thread on -nfp if you like. I,
> personally, have stated this across many mediums.

Perfect, thank you.

Are you instead interested in the Foundation moving from a 501(c)6 to
a 501(c)3 so that donations are tax deductible? If so, have you done
anything to work towards that?

> The dissolution of the Foundation is what Alec proposed in his trustee
> manifesto.
>
> Aside from this, one critical factor of doing so (as you have noted) is
> correcting the taxes which has been completed. This too was communicated
> in official letters to -nfp and "President Updates".

Yes, and that is great.