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On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 07:39:37AM -0400, Rich Freeman wrote: |
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> On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 8:47 PM, Robin H. Johnson <robbat2@g.o> wrote: |
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> > |
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> > Gentoo should ALSO care if it comes to light that individuals with past |
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> > history of incidents are participating in the community. Eg: [1a][1b] |
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> > [1a] http://www.eventbrite.com/e/ignite-bridgetown-part-of-portland-startup-week-tickets-15491321961 |
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> > [1b] http://crystalbeasley.com/2015/02/04/I-stand-against-kveton/ |
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> > How it should deal with any such individuals I don't have a good answer |
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> > to, but should be considered in CoC changes. |
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As noted here already: I don't have good answers, just more questions |
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:-(. |
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|
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> Looking at your example, how do we find a balance between: |
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> |
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> 1. Safety (err on the side of caution) vs justice (innocent until |
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> proven guilty)? |
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> 2. Safety (once a criminal, always a criminal) vs redemption (why |
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> wouldn't we want somebody trying to turn their life around to |
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> contribute to FOSS) vs punishment (here is our chance to show |
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> solidarity and throw a few more stones)? |
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Further to these, should comrel/recruiters actively research past |
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behavior? If they don't, how should they react when negative past |
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behavior comes to light? |
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|
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In that example, turn down the speaker or have the effects of having |
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them as a speaker? Damned if you do, damned if you don't. |
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|
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> The posts you cited concern somebody who was actually exonerated of |
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> the crime in a court of law. |
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For those that weren't up on the further proceedings of it, see "Grand |
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Jury declines to indict" [1]. |
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|
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> I fully get the importance of making |
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> people feel safe, and the seriousness of the crime involved, but can |
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> we expect Comrel to do a better investigation than the police? |
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The author of the second link had a good comment on this: |
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"The decision the event organizers are making is not whether he's |
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guilty, but rather whether his presence as a speaker is good for the |
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event and the community. We all have to come to a conclusion with all |
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the data we have available. You can't decide not to decide. Giving him |
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the benefit of the doubt is itself a decision." |
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|
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> If somebody did do something horrible like murder somebody 20 years |
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> ago, and they've moved on, shouldn't we give them that opportunity, |
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> especially when for the most part we're talking about posting on |
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> mailing lists and forums and bugzilla? |
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|
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> But, I'll admit I really don't get the US-style system of justice. We |
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> lock people up for minor offenses. Then after time served for major |
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> offenses we treat people like they're unsafe to have walking around on |
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> the streets, despite letting them walk around on the streets anyway. |
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> It is like we want to imprison everybody for life for everything, but |
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> can't quite bring ourselves to do it (or maybe we just can't build |
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> prisons fast enough to do so). The thought that somebody who commits |
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> a crime could be rehabilitated is completely alien to us. |
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Statistically [1], I expect at least one developer and more than that |
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for users to have a prior criminal record. |
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1. Does that record matter? |
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2. Does their more recent behavior matter? |
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3. What are the implications of a repeat incident, under the Gentoo |
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banner? |
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3.1. Will we be damned for not blocking their participation? |
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3.2. Will we be damned for blocking them before something happens? |
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3.3. Will we be damned for discussing it in a public forum? (See English |
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Defamation Law) |
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|
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The answer to most of these is sufficiently nuanced that it might be |
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summarizes as "it depends": |
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On the nature of the offence, on the venue (threads vs the next Gentoo |
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miniconf), how far in the past was the offence [Hindsight bias, 3] & on |
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any mitigating circumstances [Fundamental attribution error, 4], but to |
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name a few conditionals. |
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|
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> Are some crimes just so serious that a conviction should be sufficient |
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> to exclude them from society forever? If so, why don't we lock them |
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> up? Are some crimes just so serious that an accusation should be |
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> sufficient to exclude them from society forever? If so, why doesn't |
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> that make me feel safer? |
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I raise these, because I think statistics are never going to be on our |
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side, as Gentoo continues to age and grow as a distribution. |
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|
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Justice systems invariably lead to some injustices, in the name of being |
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fair. Maybe an injustice to a victim, maybe an injustice to the accused, |
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maybe an injustice to the public. Hindsight [3] cofounds these yet |
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again. |
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|
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I don't have good answers, and I don't think present society in general |
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has good answers either (cf your post about The Stocks Of The Internet). |
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|
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References: |
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[1] http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2014/09/grand_jury_declines_to_indict.html |
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|
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[2] Various statistics [2.1][2.2] show that ~3% of the US population is either |
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imprisoned or under parole/probation, and twice that number have |
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completed their sentence or whose criminal incidents are past. That's |
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~9% of the population. For the benefit of doubt, let's say that Gentoo |
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devs are 20x less likely than average to fit those descriptions (to |
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begin to counteract racial [2.2] & class disparities in justice). Gentoo |
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has had about 250 developers that listed themselves as being in the US. |
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250 * 9% * 1/20 = 1.125 developers. |
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We have had over 800 developers in the life of Gentoo to date, |
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sufficiently large to apply statistics to (relatedly, 5+ past developers |
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are deceased) |
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[2.1] http://paa2011.princeton.edu/papers/111687 |
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[2.2] http://www.naacp.org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet |
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|
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[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindsight_bias |
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[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error |
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|
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-- |
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Robin Hugh Johnson |
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Gentoo Linux: Developer, Infrastructure Lead |
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E-Mail : robbat2@g.o |
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GnuPG FP : 11ACBA4F 4778E3F6 E4EDF38E B27B944E 34884E85 |