Gentoo Archives: gentoo-project

From: "Robin H. Johnson" <robbat2@g.o>
To: gentoo-project@l.g.o
Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] Proposal for Council: Prohibit Harassment & Discrimination via the CoC
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 22:30:54
Message-Id: robbat2-20150426T211002-687765946Z@orbis-terrarum.net
In Reply to: Re: [gentoo-project] Proposal for Council: Prohibit Harassment & Discrimination via the CoC by Rich Freeman
1 On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 07:39:37AM -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:
2 > On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 8:47 PM, Robin H. Johnson <robbat2@g.o> wrote:
3 > >
4 > > Gentoo should ALSO care if it comes to light that individuals with past
5 > > history of incidents are participating in the community. Eg: [1a][1b]
6 > > [1a] http://www.eventbrite.com/e/ignite-bridgetown-part-of-portland-startup-week-tickets-15491321961
7 > > [1b] http://crystalbeasley.com/2015/02/04/I-stand-against-kveton/
8 > > How it should deal with any such individuals I don't have a good answer
9 > > to, but should be considered in CoC changes.
10 As noted here already: I don't have good answers, just more questions
11 :-(.
12
13 > Looking at your example, how do we find a balance between:
14 >
15 > 1. Safety (err on the side of caution) vs justice (innocent until
16 > proven guilty)?
17 > 2. Safety (once a criminal, always a criminal) vs redemption (why
18 > wouldn't we want somebody trying to turn their life around to
19 > contribute to FOSS) vs punishment (here is our chance to show
20 > solidarity and throw a few more stones)?
21 Further to these, should comrel/recruiters actively research past
22 behavior? If they don't, how should they react when negative past
23 behavior comes to light?
24
25 In that example, turn down the speaker or have the effects of having
26 them as a speaker? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
27
28 > The posts you cited concern somebody who was actually exonerated of
29 > the crime in a court of law.
30 For those that weren't up on the further proceedings of it, see "Grand
31 Jury declines to indict" [1].
32
33 > I fully get the importance of making
34 > people feel safe, and the seriousness of the crime involved, but can
35 > we expect Comrel to do a better investigation than the police?
36 The author of the second link had a good comment on this:
37 "The decision the event organizers are making is not whether he's
38 guilty, but rather whether his presence as a speaker is good for the
39 event and the community. We all have to come to a conclusion with all
40 the data we have available. You can't decide not to decide. Giving him
41 the benefit of the doubt is itself a decision."
42
43 > If somebody did do something horrible like murder somebody 20 years
44 > ago, and they've moved on, shouldn't we give them that opportunity,
45 > especially when for the most part we're talking about posting on
46 > mailing lists and forums and bugzilla?
47
48 > But, I'll admit I really don't get the US-style system of justice. We
49 > lock people up for minor offenses. Then after time served for major
50 > offenses we treat people like they're unsafe to have walking around on
51 > the streets, despite letting them walk around on the streets anyway.
52 > It is like we want to imprison everybody for life for everything, but
53 > can't quite bring ourselves to do it (or maybe we just can't build
54 > prisons fast enough to do so). The thought that somebody who commits
55 > a crime could be rehabilitated is completely alien to us.
56 Statistically [1], I expect at least one developer and more than that
57 for users to have a prior criminal record.
58 1. Does that record matter?
59 2. Does their more recent behavior matter?
60 3. What are the implications of a repeat incident, under the Gentoo
61 banner?
62 3.1. Will we be damned for not blocking their participation?
63 3.2. Will we be damned for blocking them before something happens?
64 3.3. Will we be damned for discussing it in a public forum? (See English
65 Defamation Law)
66
67 The answer to most of these is sufficiently nuanced that it might be
68 summarizes as "it depends":
69 On the nature of the offence, on the venue (threads vs the next Gentoo
70 miniconf), how far in the past was the offence [Hindsight bias, 3] & on
71 any mitigating circumstances [Fundamental attribution error, 4], but to
72 name a few conditionals.
73
74 > Are some crimes just so serious that a conviction should be sufficient
75 > to exclude them from society forever? If so, why don't we lock them
76 > up? Are some crimes just so serious that an accusation should be
77 > sufficient to exclude them from society forever? If so, why doesn't
78 > that make me feel safer?
79 I raise these, because I think statistics are never going to be on our
80 side, as Gentoo continues to age and grow as a distribution.
81
82 Justice systems invariably lead to some injustices, in the name of being
83 fair. Maybe an injustice to a victim, maybe an injustice to the accused,
84 maybe an injustice to the public. Hindsight [3] cofounds these yet
85 again.
86
87 I don't have good answers, and I don't think present society in general
88 has good answers either (cf your post about The Stocks Of The Internet).
89
90 References:
91 [1] http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2014/09/grand_jury_declines_to_indict.html
92
93 [2] Various statistics [2.1][2.2] show that ~3% of the US population is either
94 imprisoned or under parole/probation, and twice that number have
95 completed their sentence or whose criminal incidents are past. That's
96 ~9% of the population. For the benefit of doubt, let's say that Gentoo
97 devs are 20x less likely than average to fit those descriptions (to
98 begin to counteract racial [2.2] & class disparities in justice). Gentoo
99 has had about 250 developers that listed themselves as being in the US.
100 250 * 9% * 1/20 = 1.125 developers.
101 We have had over 800 developers in the life of Gentoo to date,
102 sufficiently large to apply statistics to (relatedly, 5+ past developers
103 are deceased)
104 [2.1] http://paa2011.princeton.edu/papers/111687
105 [2.2] http://www.naacp.org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet
106
107 [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindsight_bias
108 [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error
109
110 --
111 Robin Hugh Johnson
112 Gentoo Linux: Developer, Infrastructure Lead
113 E-Mail : robbat2@g.o
114 GnuPG FP : 11ACBA4F 4778E3F6 E4EDF38E B27B944E 34884E85

Replies