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On 13/04/18 23:25, Rich Freeman wrote: |
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> On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 6:07 PM, M. J. Everitt <m.j.everitt@×××.org> wrote: |
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>> On 13/04/18 22:57, Rich Freeman wrote [excerpted]: |
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>>> I find it ironic that you're suggesting that the folks who disagree |
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>>> with you leave, considering that this whole debate was started by a |
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>>> bunch of people who basically felt that nobody should really be kicked |
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>>> out for anything. |
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>>> |
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>> The problem stems from the fact that there is (perceived to be) a |
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>> problem with the wrong kinds of people *being* ejected or disciplined, |
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>> whereas some people who *should* be ejected or disciplined, are not. And |
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>> obviously so. There is no even-handed or transparent application of |
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>> whatever "rules" are being applied, and this is seen to be unjust and |
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>> unacceptable ... |
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>> |
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> Obviously I don't want to rehash this whole debate, but applying the |
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> rules in a transparent way seems to be impossible without creating |
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> legal risks. I've yet to hear anything to the contrary from the |
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> Trustees/etc. So, it comes down to either trusting people to do this |
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> well, or not doing it at all. I'm certainly supportive of calls to |
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> try to improve transparency where this is possible, such as with |
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> anonymized stats published by comrel. |
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> |
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> FWIW I've actually heard complaints at all levels within Gentoo about |
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> double standards (coming from the top on down). It is probably fair |
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> to say that bad deeds can be offset by good deeds to a significant |
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> degree around here, even if those deeds are of a different nature. |
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> So, somebody with a strong negative technical/non-technical/social |
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> contribution could be tolerated if they have a correspondingly strong |
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> positive social/non-technical/technical contribution. I've seen lots |
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> of debate on both sides as to whether that is good or bad, but there |
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> are certainly consequences for being too liberal with booting people |
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> out, or keeping them around. |
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> |
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> I haven't heard many appeals during my time on the Council, but from |
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> the ones I have seen there were usually very good reasons for those |
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> who were asked to leave, and those same people were generally not very |
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> honest with the community about the reasons they were given for being |
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> booted. One form of transparency I have suggested is that when |
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> disciplinary actions are given the person being disciplined should be |
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> given an explanation for why the action is being taken, and that at |
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> their option that explanation would be made public verbatim. I've |
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> seen Debian do this and I thought it was a good way to balance |
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> privacy/transparency/risk. The person being disciplined can at their |
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> option keep the whole matter quiet, or they can have it publicized in |
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> an official way. However, if they decide to publish their own account |
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> of events while denying Gentoo permission to publish its side, then |
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> those listening will probably be skeptical that they're getting the |
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> full story. Since Gentoo would not make any public statements without |
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> permission from the person impacted there would be little risk of |
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> legal repercussions. |
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> |
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I think that if this is the process, people are more likely to buy into |
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it, and accept that if that's the way it works, they can take it or |
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leave it - and the risk is more theirs than that of the organisation. I |
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think that in itself will garner more respect than the current situation |
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at least .. |
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