1 |
bcc: gentoo-dev |
2 |
|
3 |
On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Michael Higgins <linux@×××××××.org> wrote: |
4 |
> On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 11:09:04 -0700 |
5 |
> Donnie Berkholz <dberkholz@g.o> wrote: |
6 |
> |
7 |
>> On 19:06 Wed 11 Mar , Thilo Bangert wrote: |
8 |
>> > > > the presumption seems to be, that as a dev one has to be |
9 |
>> > > > available via IRC. it has long been my feeling that Gentoo as a |
10 |
>> > > > project could realize more of its potential by better |
11 |
>> > > > integrating people who dont do IRC. |
12 |
>> |
13 |
>> I think IRC helps to build a more tightly knit community and, because |
14 |
>> of this, is very important to Gentoo. The less close we are as a |
15 |
>> community, the more free we feel to be hostile because we don't see |
16 |
>> the folks on the other end of the big tube as real people. It's much |
17 |
>> like a technique that militaries use during wars to de-personalize |
18 |
>> the enemy, except with the Internet, we start that way and have to |
19 |
>> apply effort to grow closer. |
20 |
>> |
21 |
> |
22 |
> This is an interesting point you raise, though I don't think it applies in this case. |
23 |
> |
24 |
> I believe, rather, that the issue is the 'community' appears more like a 'cabal' when the discussions take place on #IRC and therefore aren't available in public archives. |
25 |
|
26 |
Technically irc is easy to archive for public use; I believe some |
27 |
channels do this already. I don't exactly what you mean by "public |
28 |
archives"; are you referring to mailing list archives? What about |
29 |
other archives like cvs? |
30 |
|
31 |
> |
32 |
> Even if they are, an IRC log is a *terrible* way to document an issue. |
33 |
|
34 |
I agree, how else should we document decisions? |
35 |
|
36 |
> |
37 |
> Since the discussion is Re: '*DEVS* on IRC', I think the problem should be clear: |
38 |
> |
39 |
> You all get more closely knit, perhaps, yet appear to do more *in secret*. There is *no way* to find out what is going on, without becoming part of the problem... by asking, or lurking, on IRC. This is bad. |
40 |
|
41 |
cvs logs? |
42 |
|
43 |
> |
44 |
> Example? After months of searching for a reason, after seeing many apparently random updates to a previously stable tree of perl modules, I happen to keep an IRC session log which shows with this FSCKING USEFUL TIDBIT: |
45 |
> |
46 |
> "... no motivated developers. the perl team completely vanished." |
47 |
> |
48 |
> Anyone considering using Gentoo should KNOW that, if they use perl in any substantive way. Wouldn't you agree? |
49 |
> |
50 |
> Now, why isn't there a discussion about this on the gentoo-perl mailing list? Not even a post from some DEV with a cry for HELP? If there's a problem, *who* is doing *what* to address it, and *where*? |
51 |
> |
52 |
> Oh, right, there's *some* discussion on IRC... |
53 |
> |
54 |
> Anyway, it's just one example. In this case, I'd be glad to see *some* documentation of the (apparent total) collapse of the 'perl team' and what is being proposed to fix the problem, *without* having to become part of the cabal. |
55 |
|
56 |
One of the problems with this type of volunteer system is that someone |
57 |
has to care first. You have to see that first post to gentoo-perl |
58 |
saying 'hey we have no people working on this stuff.' I don't see a |
59 |
post like that by anyone; so I'm not surprised that no one has said |
60 |
anything. It looks like the only person who still posts to that list |
61 |
is tove; and I see like maybe 3 threads in 2009. I don't see how the |
62 |
developers outside of perl can know that perl is having issues, and if |
63 |
the devs on the perl project number 0, then there is no one left to |
64 |
write any documentation anyway. I guess it is up to the users to |
65 |
bring that issue to light then. |
66 |
|
67 |
> |
68 |
> Since there is a mailing list dedicated for discussions of perl and gentoo, that seems the most logical place to air the dirty laundry and announce/discuss the plan for moving forward. IMO. |
69 |
|
70 |
I await your post on the subject. |
71 |
|
72 |
> |
73 |
> Cheers, |
74 |
> |
75 |
> -- |
76 |
> |\ /| | | ~ ~ |
77 |
> | \/ | |---| `|` ? |
78 |
> | |ichael | |iggins \^ / |
79 |
> michael.higgins[at]evolone[dot]org |
80 |
> |
81 |
> |