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On 29 Mar 2022 12:29, Alec Warner wrote: |
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> On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 10:56 AM Mike Frysinger wrote: |
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> > starting a dedicated thread for |
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> > https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/ec2b560480627371a7bda5c85924eddd |
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> > |
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> > GH provides a lot of functionality for free that Gentoo infra does not cover. |
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> > these are particularly useful for projects that are used beyond Gentoo. |
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> |
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> GH is non-free, and so in the spirit of the social contract, I do not |
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> believe it should be used. Arguably it shouldn't be used now, but we |
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> have not stood up an alternative. The alternative is currently in |
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> alpha (see notes below.) |
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|
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this argument doesn't really hold water. we already have core packages (e.g. |
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portage & catalyst) that hard depend on 3rd party packages that only exist on |
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GH. we also have many 1st party packages (i.e. ones authored by Gentoo devs) |
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that only exist on GH. this includes core python packages as well as both of |
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the init systems that Gentoo uses (OpenRC & systemd). |
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|
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the proposal isn't talking about using GH for code hosting. that remains on |
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Gentoo infra. it also isn't about issue tracking which we have bugs.g.o for. |
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this is about features that cost nothing and aren't problematic if they're |
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lost (i.e. GH shuts down). |
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|
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further, let's see what the social contract actually says: |
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> We will release our contributions to Gentoo as free software, metadata or |
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> documentation, under the GNU General Public License version 2 (or later, at |
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> our discretion) or the Creative Commons - Attribution / Share Alike version |
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> 2 (or later, at our discretion). Any external contributions to Gentoo (in |
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> the form of freely-distributable sources, binaries, metadata or documentation) |
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> may be incorporated into Gentoo provided that we are legally entitled to do |
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> so. However, Gentoo will never depend upon a piece of software or metadata |
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> unless it conforms to the GNU General Public License, the GNU Lesser General |
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> Public License, the Creative Commons - Attribution/Share Alike or some other |
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> license approved by the Open Source Initiative (OSI). |
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|
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all the code is still GPL-2, and we're hosting it. |
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|
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if you're going to try and argue that the hosting services of software we |
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depend on all have to be FOSS, then that ship sailed long ago (if it even |
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ever made it to port). it's logically reductive to the point of irrelevance. |
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do we require our mirrors to only run FOSS when they host our distfiles or |
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rsync trees or git repos ? if we're running in a VM, do we require the VM |
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host to only run FOSS ? if it's running in a container, do we require the |
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container software & host to only run FOSS ? do we require the hardware |
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vendors themselves to be FOSS (i.e. Intel's ME & firmware) ? where exactly |
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does it end ? |
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|
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> > * CI runs (e.g. GH actions) |
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> |
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> We have CI but it's mostly not self-service and the primary issue on |
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> the infra-side is always resources / people. I agree we should aim for |
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> something more accessible. |
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|
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i don't see why we would waste our money & resources when there places like |
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GH are throwing tons of free resources. is our CI going to support multiple |
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OS's ? are we going to pay the licensing fees for running on proprietary |
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OS's (e.g. Windows) ? what about multiple Linux distros ? multiple arches ? |
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can it actually scale to all our needs ? who gets to maintain all that and |
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actually keep it working ? this is more than a full time job, and asking |
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every dev to chip in only leads to infra that risks falling apart every |
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other week. |
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|
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does it really make sense to spend limited engineering time requiring |
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everyone to use these subpar systems ? |
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|
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if people want to volunteer to work on it for Gentoo, that's fine of course, |
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but that doesn't mean we should require every Gentoo project to only use |
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these. |
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|
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> > * Projects for task management |
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> |
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> I'm not sure what this is (I haven't used it.) We use bugzilla for |
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> task management (issues) and mailing lists (for discussion.) I'm not |
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> sure github issues are "better" but they do have some advantages; I've |
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> gotten complaints about bugzilla, particularly on mobile. Plus you |
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> cannot reply to bugs easily via email. |
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> |
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> For the time being the gitlab alpha does not intend to move issues out |
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> of bugzilla; nor use gitlab for discussions; aside from discussions on |
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> PRs (which will be on gitlab.) |
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|
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the lack of e-mail gateway is kind of annoying. i'm not super tied to this |
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particular feature, just another one that i noticed could be of value, and |
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where bugzilla is a poor substitute. not sure how many projects would use |
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it in practice. |
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|
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gitlab seems to support these though, so it's less of an issue. |
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|
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> > * possibly even Discussions since it'll provide a clear/scoped space for |
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> > non-Gentoo users & devs. Gentoo forums are huge and require custom accts, |
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> > and mailing lists are huge and a bit restrictive old timey. |
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> |
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> We have an SSO solution (sso.gentoo.org) that we are rolling out for |
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> developers, and our gitlab (in alpha testing) will support external |
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> account providers (probably google, gitlab, github accounts.) |
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> |
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> I'm honestly unsure how to receive feedback like "mailing lists are a |
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> bit restrictive old timey". What does that mean? |
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> |
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> - It's hard to know which list to email. |
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> - I often have to subscribe to the list to post. |
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> - Hard to have pretty content in an email. |
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|
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managing subscriptions is archaic. it's been archaic for years. you have |
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to manually construct the e-mail address to send messages to. |
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https://www.gentoo.org/get-involved/mailing-lists/instructions.html |
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|
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jumping through these hoops just to start a conversation means people don't. |
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mailing lists have fallen out of favor as modern communication methods -- see |
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the rise of web-based services. i'm not suggesting we migrate to e.g. slack. |
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|
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more to the point, we don't have localized low-friction spaces. we don't |
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have that many mailing lists. they lock out people (e.g. gentoo-dev) or |
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they're large & noisy (gentoo-users) or they're still larger in scope (e.g. |
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the arch lists). creating mailing lists is painful, and doesn't help that |
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much with the other points. |
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|
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> > this is all orthogonal to the git content itself (objects, branches, tags, |
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> > etc...). those should remain in the read-only clobber mode that exists now. |
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> > |
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> > there is no downside for Gentoo here. it's all functionality that can be |
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> > had for free, does not introduce any risks, and many devs are already using |
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> > GH heavily for Gentoo projects -- albeit, they don't do it under the Gentoo |
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> > umbrella, they fork it into their own personal space and maintain it there. |
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> > we shouldn't be forcing devs & projects away from Gentoo for such basic |
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> > functionality. |
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> |
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> I think you present a 'free lunch' here and I'll just say "there is no |
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> such thing as a free lunch." The downside is that we present Gentoo as |
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> an open distro that doesn't depend on proprietary software, but is |
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> developed using Github, a proprietary solution that provides all this |
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> cool functionality that we don't have implemented in house. In general |
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> that's not a sustainable approach. I get that we make tradeoffs |
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> (firmware, drivers, being an obvious place where compromises are |
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> made.) I'm not sure I'm willing to support this one. |
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|
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are you planning on mandating @system packages and all their deps to not |
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use GH ? or packages that Gentoo devs are maintaining that are only used |
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by Gentoo to not use GH ? or that those packages have to use GPL-2(+) ? |
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there's a number of core Gentoo projects right now that are absolutely |
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violating the social contract by using BSD licenses instead of GPL, but |
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no one is saying anything about it. |
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|
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are you saying that things like Gentoo/Prefix are not welcome here just |
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because they run on Windows or macOS or other proprietary OS's ? there's |
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a lot of code that isn't useful at all when you take away these things. |
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i think you're extrapolating the social contract beyond what it actually is. |
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Gentoo isn't GNU. everything we produce is FOSS which is what the social |
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contract dictates. it isn't that everything has to be GPL down to the CPU. |
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not all Gentoo projects are purely about Gentoo. they might have started |
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here, and focus on here, but are usable beyond. how does kicking them out |
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of the Gentoo umbrella help anyone ? |
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-mike |