Re: [gentoo-project] Libera migration summary

[John Helmert III]

On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 09:37:17AM -0700, Alec Warner wrote:
> On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 4:58 AM Sam James <sam@g.o> wrote:
> >
> > I initially started this discussion on -core but it was felt we should discuss this on -project too.
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: Sam James <sam@g.o>
> > Subject: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary
> > Date: 22 May 2021 at 02:24:33 BST
> > To: gentoo-core@l.g.o
> > Cc: council@g.o
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I’m going to try keep this brief, but I feel quite strongly that delay is problematic wrt choosing Gentoo's future IRC home.  I think it's hurting our community given we have a particularly strong IRC presence, which has recently become sparsely inhabited.
> >
> > I'm partly asking fellow developers to trust me and the general belief of Gentoo's groupcontacts team. I personally have strong roots in IRC -- I've seen some of the goings-on behind the scenes recently, and I trust the calls made by the ex-freenode staff in founding Libera.
>
> So my biggest problem is again governance; is there any transparency
> on continuity of *Libera* or will someone just sell it again in 2
> years?
>
> >
> > Reasons for migration to Libera:
> > 1) Libera is the continuity choice. irc.freenode.net has no relationship with the previous freenode of the last 15 years other than the domain name
> > and some sponsored servers.
> > (Libera is already building up sponsorship and servers - it is not, as was alluded to on another thread, purely cloud/their own infrastructure.)
>
> I'm not sure what this means; how is Libera 'the continuity choice'? Is it:
> Because the ex-freenode staff have asked us to move there?
> Because we have a strong relationship with that staff?
> Because many other projects are moving there?
> Some other reason?
>
> >
> > 2) We have a strong working relationship with the staff at Libera.
> >
> > For example, they immediately reserved our namespace (this means #gentoo-*) to prevent any hostile takeovers while we make decisions.
> >
> > 3) The vast majority of developers are not involved in IRC administration or indeed the migration efforts and may not be aware of the
> > actual issues involved with coordinating with a new team. We are working with exactly the same people on Libera who understand
> > what we require and have been working with us tirelessly to setup new cloaks, channels, and other special arrangements.
> >
> > 4) Compare this with the current state of #gentoo-groupcontacts on Freenode which has 0 staff members. If we wanted to add/remove a new
> > developer, or handle any other issues, there is simply nobody available to speak to.
>
> So part of my concern here is that these reasons are all mostly about
> groupcontacts (e.g. the 4-5 person team that manages our IRC presence)
> and doesn't talk much about the community (e.g. the thousands of
> people actually using IRC for stuff.) So why should the community
> move? I care more about them than about groupcontacts (no offense.)
>
> >
> > 5) Freenode is currently experiencing high turnover of new IRC operators/administrators, some of which have dubious connections to Rizon and other controversial
> > IRC networks. It’s clear that, even if they are skilled individuals, they haven’t been trained on the current way of working at Freenode given they’re
> > not in any of the usual mediums we use to handle *projects*.
>
> Why is Rizon controversial?
> Note that freenode was attacked with spambots repeatedly in the past
> (GNAA, other attacks) and freenode admins struggled fighting the
> attacks for months. So why do we care about spambot attacks now, as
> opposed to in the past? Or are the attacks just a pretense we are
> using to move for other reasons?
>
> >
> > (The two previous points are linked to the large spamwaves with nobody competent able to handle them on a network level.)
> >
> > Reasons against delay:
> > 1) freenode has lost the trust of plenty of users and so we’re already introducing a cost for people who want to continue chatting on freenode to access Gentoo channels.
>
> How has it lost trust?

By things like this happening:

https://www.devever.net/~hl/freenode_abuse

tl;dr (a snippet from that page):

"On 2021-05-22, I received a tip-off that the topic of the Freenode channel ##hntop (which I had parted) had had its topic changed back. I rejoined the channel to confirm this. The following changes had taken place:

    the topic had been changed back to the previous topic;
    rasengan had operator status, which I never authorized or intended;
    I no longer had operator status;
    egobot had been replaced with rasengan's bot which he previously used in his channel ##hnnew, humblebot, which had voice.

Examination of ChanServ records also reveals that I am no longer the founder of the channel:

  2021-05-22 14:37:53    <hl> info ##hntop
  2021-05-22 14:37:53    -- ChanServ: Information on ##hntop:
  2021-05-22 14:37:53    -- ChanServ: Founder    : freenode-placeholder-account
  2021-05-22 14:37:53    -- ChanServ: Registered : May 22 06:01:30 2021 (7h 36m 23s ago)
  2021-05-22 14:37:53    -- ChanServ: *** End of Info ***

I no longer have any authority or ChanServ flags for this channel."

With these abuses happening, moving away from Freenode seems to be the
only reasonable choice. There may still be a potential for impersonation
on Libera, but it now seems impersonation on Freenode isn't out of the
realm of possibility. The network is simply untrustworthy.

> > 2) #gentoo is currently rather barren as opposed to the wall of support activity we're used to.
> > 3) Inter-developer communication is suffering too. #gentoo-dev is quiet as are other project channels as the cost of “keeping up” with activity
> > increases.
>
> I'm in the normal channels and I see activity; Are people talking on
> libera behind my back!?
>
> > 4) We’re not the only project to be moving. We’re far from being the first large FOSS project to move. This means that *if*, in the unlikely event this is the wrong decision, we’re in very good company. We’re joined by Ubuntu and CentOS for a start.
> > 5) Large swathes of spambots continue to flood freenode given there's a vacuum left by the lack of administration.
> >
> > Reasons against OFTC *for now*:
> > 1) Lack of developer/project cloaks (but dwfreed has indicated it’s _possible_ this can change in future)
> >
> > 2) Outdated/unconventional services and IRC daemon. This includes lack of SASL support and unusual/missing features in e.g. ChanServ.
> > This is the general opinion in the “IRC community” too. Note that OFTC staff are trying to improve this but it will take time.
>
> What is the suboptimal outcome of this? I read this as "things are
> different from freenode" which is not the same thing as "key features
> of chanserv are missing." If they are missing, what are they?
>
> >
> > ----
> >
> > Personally, I admire that OFTC had a solid governance structure long before this current freenode drama, and in the long run, I’d love to actually have Gentoo there for the sake of decentralisation (and I've always had a bit of a softspot for it). But even OFTC themselves accept that they’re not the continuity candidate in terms of migration from freenode right now (both tomaw and dwfreed said as much).
> >
> > All of that said: if, in the future (or now), the community decides to move to OFTC, I'm very happy to facilitate that. But I'd really encourage _some_ decision is made, even if it's not the one I'm hoping for (Libera). If it's OFTC, I'll sit here and do the grunt work with the rest of our fabulous groupcontacts.
> >
> > I’d like to request an emergency council meeting to discuss and vote on the matter as soon as possible. This would ideally be later tomorrow (Sunday, 23rd May).
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: Georgy Yakovlev <gyakovlev@g.o>
> > Subject: [gentoo-core] Re: Libera migration summary
> > Date: 22 May 2021 at 02:35:16 BST
> > To: Sam James <sam@g.o>
> > Cc: gentoo-core@l.g.o, council@g.o
> >
> > On 22.05.2021 02:24, Sam James wrote:
> > ... snip
> >
> > I support holding emergency metting/vote.
> >
> > For others reading the thread.
> > Remember, this is not about who is right (freenode vs libera), it's about whenever we should
> > move in current situation.
> >
> > --
> > Best regards,
> > Georgy
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: "Andreas K. Huettel" <dilfridge@g.o>
> > Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary
> > Date: 22 May 2021 at 12:41:03 BST
> > To: Sam James <sam@g.o>, gentoo-core@l.g.o
> > Cc: council@g.o, David Seifert <soap@g.o>
> >
> > Reasons for migration to Libera:
> > 1) Libera is the continuity choice. irc.freenode.net has no
> > relationship with the previous freenode of the last 15 years other
> > than the domain name
> > and some sponsored servers.
> > (Libera is already building up sponsorship and servers - it is not, as
> > was alluded to on another thread, purely cloud/their own
> > infrastructure.)
> >
> >
> > I strongly support an emergency meeting and moving to Libera.
> >
> >
> > I also strongly support an emergency meeting and moving to Libera.
> >
> > Also, WTF? https://twitter.com/ariadneconill/status/1395667119778500611
> > It seems like we need to get the heck out of Freenode as fast as possible.
> >
> > --
> > Andreas K. Hüttel
> > dilfridge@g.o
> > Gentoo Linux developer
> > (council, qa, toolchain, base-system, perl, libreoffice)
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: "Sam Jorna (wraeth)" <wraeth@g.o>
> > Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Re: Libera migration summary
> > Date: 22 May 2021 at 04:57:42 BST
> > To: gentoo-core@l.g.o
> >
> > On 22/5/21 11:38 am, Matthew Thode wrote:
> >
> > On 21-05-21 18:35:16, Georgy Yakovlev wrote:
> >
> > On 22.05.2021 02:24, Sam James wrote:
> > ... snip
> >
> > I support holding emergency metting/vote.
> >
> > For others reading the thread.
> > Remember, this is not about who is right (freenode vs libera), it's about whenever we should
> > move in current situation.
> >
> > --
> > Best regards,
> > Georgy
> >
> >
> > I also support holding an emergency meeting/vote.
> >
> >
> > I, too, would like an emergency meeting for a decision to be made.
> >
> > Further, as I usually can't attend meetings due to being on the
> > back-side of the TZ spectrum, I'd like to note I personally support
> >
> >  a) for Gentoo to generally move away from freenode (we can maintain
> > *some* presence there, if/as necessary), largely due to the loss of
> > trust in it in the community at large.
> >
> >  b) for the move to be toward libera.chat, due to the staff
> > relationship, technical facility, and the work that's already gone in to
> > setting up our presence there (channel registration, cloaks); as well as
> > the considerable number of users that have already moved in that direction.
> >
> > Cheers
> > --
> > Sam Jorna (wraeth)
> > GnuPG ID: 0xD6180C26
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: David Seifert <soap@g.o>
> > Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary
> > Date: 22 May 2021 at 11:17:03 BST
> > To: Sam James <sam@g.o>, gentoo-core@l.g.o
> > Cc: council@g.o
> >
> > On Sat, 2021-05-22 at 02:24 +0100, Sam James wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I’m going to try keep this brief, but I feel quite strongly that delay
> > is problematic wrt choosing Gentoo's future IRC home.  I think it's
> > hurting our community given we have a particularly strong IRC
> > presence, which has recently become sparsely inhabited.
> >
> > I'm partly asking fellow developers to trust me and the general belief
> > of Gentoo's groupcontacts team. I personally have strong roots in IRC
> > -- I've seen some of the goings-on behind the scenes recently, and I
> > trust the calls made by the ex-freenode staff in founding Libera.
> >
> > Reasons for migration to Libera:
> > 1) Libera is the continuity choice. irc.freenode.net has no
> > relationship with the previous freenode of the last 15 years other
> > than the domain name
> > and some sponsored servers.
> > (Libera is already building up sponsorship and servers - it is not, as
> > was alluded to on another thread, purely cloud/their own
> > infrastructure.)
> >
> >
> > I strongly support an emergency meeting and moving to Libera.
> >
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: Joonas Niilola <juippis@g.o>
> > Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary
> > Date: 22 May 2021 at 05:27:45 BST
> > To: gentoo-core@l.g.o
> >
> > On 22.5.2021 4.24, Sam James wrote:
> >
> >
> > 4) Compare this with the current state of #gentoo-groupcontacts on Freenode which has 0 staff members. If we wanted to add/remove a new
> > developer, or handle any other issues, there is simply nobody available to speak to.
> >
> >
> > I don't think you're being fair with this. Of course it's empty because
> > the previous people just left yesterday, and the current Freenode staff
> > are still figuring out the ropes. I'm sure there's someone to talk to
> > even if our groupcontact IRC channel is empty currently.
> >
> > (That being said the admins who left to Libera are the people we've
> > worked together for years)
> >
> >
> > 5) Freenode is currently experiencing high turnover of new IRC operators/administrators, some of which have dubious connections to Rizon and other controversial
> > IRC networks. It’s clear that, even if they are skilled individuals, they haven’t been trained on the current way of working at Freenode given they’re
> > not in any of the usual mediums we use to handle *projects*.
> >
> >
> > Exactly as you said. Even Gentoo gets new developers while the old ones
> > leave. Still seems to work.
> >
> > Note: No personal opinion as what to do here. I'm fine with both ways.
> >
> > -- juippis
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: Matthew Thode <prometheanfire@g.o>
> > Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Re: Libera migration summary
> > Date: 22 May 2021 at 02:38:21 BST
> > To: Georgy Yakovlev <gyakovlev@g.o>
> > Cc: Sam James <sam@g.o>, gentoo-core@l.g.o, council@g.o
> >
> > On 21-05-21 18:35:16, Georgy Yakovlev wrote:
> >
> > On 22.05.2021 02:24, Sam James wrote:
> > ... snip
> >
> > I support holding emergency metting/vote.
> >
> > For others reading the thread.
> > Remember, this is not about who is right (freenode vs libera), it's about whenever we should
> > move in current situation.
> >
> > --
> > Best regards,
> > Georgy
> >
> >
> > I also support holding an emergency meeting/vote.
> >
> > --
> > Matthew Thode (prometheanfire)
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: Sergei Trofimovich <slyfox@g.o>
> > Subject: [gentoo-core] Re: Libera migration summary
> > Date: 22 May 2021 at 09:50:24 BST
> > To: Sam James <sam@g.o>
> > Cc: gentoo-core@l.g.o, council@g.o
> >
> > On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 02:24:33AM +0100, Sam James wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I’m going to try keep this brief, but I feel quite strongly that delay is problematic wrt choosing Gentoo's future IRC home.  I think it's hurting our community given we have a particularly strong IRC presence, which has recently become sparsely inhabited.
> >
> >
> > Minor personal note: for some people (and projects) it's not just
> > switching IRC home but also a chance to abandon IRC entirely.
> > I personally will stop following a few project in IRC as it will
> > stop (or already stopped) being a primary place for discussions.
> >
> > We will impact the community with any choice we do (or don't do) today.
> >
> > I'm partly asking fellow developers to trust me and the general belief of Gentoo's groupcontacts team. I personally have strong roots in IRC -- I've seen some of the goings-on behind the scenes recently, and I trust the calls made by the ex-freenode staff in founding Libera.
> >
> > Reasons for migration to Libera:
> > 1) Libera is the continuity choice. irc.freenode.net has no relationship with the previous freenode of the last 15 years other than the domain name
> > and some sponsored servers.
> > (Libera is already building up sponsorship and servers - it is not, as was alluded to on another thread, purely cloud/their own infrastructure.)
> >
> > 2) We have a strong working relationship with the staff at Libera.
> >
> > For example, they immediately reserved our namespace (this means #gentoo-*) to prevent any hostile takeovers while we make decisions.
> >
> > 3) The vast majority of developers are not involved in IRC administration or indeed the migration efforts and may not be aware of the
> > actual issues involved with coordinating with a new team. We are working with exactly the same people on Libera who understand
> > what we require and have been working with us tirelessly to setup new cloaks, channels, and other special arrangements.
> >
> > 4) Compare this with the current state of #gentoo-groupcontacts on Freenode which has 0 staff members. If we wanted to add/remove a new
> > developer, or handle any other issues, there is simply nobody available to speak to.
> >
> > 5) Freenode is currently experiencing high turnover of new IRC operators/administrators, some of which have dubious connections to Rizon and other controversial
> > IRC networks. It’s clear that, even if they are skilled individuals, they haven’t been trained on the current way of working at Freenode given they’re
> > not in any of the usual mediums we use to handle *projects*.
> >
> > (The two previous points are linked to the large spamwaves with nobody competent able to handle them on a network level.)
> >
> > Reasons against delay:
> > 1) freenode has lost the trust of plenty of users and so we’re already introducing a cost for people who want to continue chatting on freenode to access Gentoo channels.
> > 2) #gentoo is currently rather barren as opposed to the wall of support activity we're used to.
> > 3) Inter-developer communication is suffering too. #gentoo-dev is quiet as are other project channels as the cost of “keeping up” with activity
> > increases.
> > 4) We’re not the only project to be moving. We’re far from being the first large FOSS project to move. This means that *if*, in the unlikely event this is the wrong decision, we’re in very good company. We’re joined by Ubuntu and CentOS for a start.
> > 5) Large swathes of spambots continue to flood freenode given there's a vacuum left by the lack of administration.
> >
> > Reasons against OFTC *for now*:
> > 1) Lack of developer/project cloaks (but dwfreed has indicated it’s _possible_ this can change in future)
> >
> > 2) Outdated/unconventional services and IRC daemon. This includes lack of SASL support and unusual/missing features in e.g. ChanServ.
> > This is the general opinion in the “IRC community” too. Note that OFTC staff are trying to improve this but it will take time.
> >
> >
> > Minor personal note:
> >
> > For OFTC I'm using
> >    https://pthree.org/2010/02/01/oftc-ssl-nickserv-and-irssi/
> > for a while and ended up setting up the same on libera:
> >    https://libera.chat/guides/certfp
> >
> > I found certfp superior to hardcoding passwords in the irssi
> > config that freenode requires:
> >    https://freenode.net/kb/answer/irssi
> >
> > But I don't pretent to understand the finer details of the difference.
> >
> > ----
> >
> > Personally, I admire that OFTC had a solid governance structure long before this current freenode drama, and in the long run, I’d love to actually have Gentoo there for the sake of decentralisation (and I've always had a bit of a softspot for it). But even OFTC themselves accept that they’re not the continuity candidate in terms of migration from freenode right now (both tomaw and dwfreed said as much).
> >
> > All of that said: if, in the future (or now), the community decides to move to OFTC, I'm very happy to facilitate that. But I'd really encourage _some_ decision is made, even if it's not the one I'm hoping for (Libera). If it's OFTC, I'll sit here and do the grunt work with the rest of our fabulous groupcontacts.
> >
> > I’d like to request an emergency council meeting to discuss and vote on the matter as soon as possible. This would ideally be later tomorrow (Sunday, 23rd May).
> >
> >
> > Thank you for listing the options explicitly!
> >
> > I personally don't mind having emergency council@ meeting tomorrow.
> > Don't know about the others.
> >
> > I also personally think having a bit of public discussion in -project
> > would be beneficial to at least have our options listed as wider
> > community sees it.
> >
> > Longer term Gentoo would probably want to define Gentoo's requirements
> > for official presence in communication platforms to consider them
> > official (and/or primary). That would ease reasoning about why exactly
> > Freenode does not suit us today and would simplify building a list
> > of available choices.
> >
> > --
> >
> >  Sergei
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: Luca Barbato <lu_zero@g.o>
> > Subject: Re: [gentoo-core] Libera migration summary
> > Date: 22 May 2021 at 08:18:59 BST
> > To: gentoo-core@l.g.o
> >
> > On 22/05/21 03:24, Sam James wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I’m going to try keep this brief, but I feel quite strongly that
> > delay is problematic wrt choosing Gentoo's future IRC home.  I think
> > it's hurting our community given we have a particularly strong IRC
> > presence, which has recently become sparsely inhabited.
> >
> > I'm partly asking fellow developers to trust me and the general
> > belief of Gentoo's groupcontacts team. I personally have strong roots
> > in IRC -- I've seen some of the goings-on behind the scenes recently,
> > and I trust the calls made by the ex-freenode staff in founding
> > Libera.
> >
> >
> > Most irc clients make staying on both networks simple, given that all
> > the hard work (namespace, cloaks and such) is done or being done timely
> > we could just stay in both for the time being.
> >
> > Who doesn't have their irc names registered on libera.chat yet ?
> >
> > lu
> >
> >
> >
>