Gentoo Archives: gentoo-user

From: Randy Barlow <randy@×××××××××××××××××.com>
To: gentoo-user@l.g.o
Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 16:02:26
Message-Id: 1367164922.2194.182.camel@localhost
In Reply to: Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio by Alan McKinnon
1 On Sun, 2013-04-28 at 11:59 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
2 > You don't say what your project is, but reading between the lines I
3 > think it's safe to assume it's a somewhat niche project with specific
4 > goals that solves a specific problem, right?
5
6 This is true (I almost typed True. That's what happens when you code 8
7 days a week.)
8
9 > Such projects come with their dep list as you pointed out and this only
10 > affects the machines that project runs on. In eight years hanging out on
11 > this list I don't recall any cases of users complaining about deps of
12 > projects in such a class.
13 >
14 > What we complain about here is basic low-level software changes that
15 > affect much more than just their own little universe, and will do it ON
16 > ALL LINUX MACHINES NOW AND IN THE FUTURE.
17
18 Well, this will be the case if nobody forks these projects, or writes
19 competing projects. As Dale has pointed out, there already is eudev. For
20 systemd, you have OpenRC as an alternative. For Pulse, you can just use
21 a different DE. I understand that you don't like the direction that
22 these projects are going, and I'm not attempting to convince you to like
23 or use them. I'm just trying to point out that there are viable
24 alternatives.
25
26 Perhaps you are concerned that Gentoo will require these technologies?
27 That might happen, I don't know one way or the other. If it does,
28 there's always the possibility of forking Gentoo itself (there are
29 already a handful of Gentoo derivatives.)
30
31 > That is a whole different kettle of fish entirely and is interpreted
32 > very differently from what your project does, this is the point where
33 > the analogies break down. Regardless of how similar two things may
34 > appear on technical merit, the reaction of users is always the deciding
35 > factor.
36
37 Fair enough.
38
39 > udev rules changed network names for all recently updated Linux machines
40 > everywhere.
41 > Separate /usr caused changes to many machines not using an initrd, and
42 > will continue to do that for all time.
43 > systemd changes how sysadmins start and shutdown their machines, and how
44 > that works for every service on the host whether the sysadmin likes it
45 > or not.
46 > PA makes deep changes to how the machines handles sound, and the user
47 > for the most part never agreed to have those changes. The user agreed to
48 > use Gnome and the change came in from left field unexpected.
49
50 Yeah, I fully understand why you don't like these. I don't fully like
51 them either, to be honest. I too experienced some inconveniences during
52 my upgrades, particularly around udev. However, in my case, I'm willing
53 to accept it. For you, there are alternatives.
54
55 > With your project, the user knows upfront they will need MongoDB, they
56 > make an informed decision about this before ever emerging your code at
57 > all. So your analogy doesn't really hold true. A much better analogy
58 > would be if your project used MySQL and one day you required them to
59 > upgrade to Oracle (and not the free one either...). Plus, you don't
60 > really give them a choice - you also say that all support for all
61 > currently released versions will end in 6-12 months. You are giving the
62 > *apparency* of choice, whilst creating the *reality* of no (or very
63 > little) choice. Does this not look to you a lot like lock-in?
64
65 Yeah, I think I understand more where you are coming from. And I do see
66 how my project is different. My project is unlikely to be installed by
67 default on all the major Linux distributions, so there's no worry that
68 we will be bringing MongoDB to be on each distribution.
69
70 I just want people to focus on the fact that there is still choice. You
71 are not alone in your dislike for these technologies, and for you there
72 are options. Yeah, maybe you will be using a technology that is only
73 used by a minority, but we're all used to that on this list, right? :)
74
75 --
76 Randy Barlow

Replies

Subject Author
Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@×××××.com>