Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1

[Neil Bothwick]

On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 17:45:44 +0000 (UTC), James wrote:

> > At which point the new user is diving into the handbook partway
> > though, missing important information from the first part. There is
> > no point in using graphical installer if users still need to drop to
> > the command line to administer the system, and if you want an all
> > graphical installation and administration environment, use YaST.
>
>
> Well, I forgot to mention that one of my tenants to a graphical
> installation is that is also be 'unattended'. Input the configuration
> data and let it run. If it can successfully run, unattended, then it
> really does not matter if it takes 15 minutes or 15 hours.

So you want an automated install, but that goes against the Gentoo ethos
of putting the user in control and also causes problems later because the
user does not understand what they have installed.

> I disagree with your 'no point.. if you still drop to the comand line"
> I'm not suggesting that Gentoo be run and managed from webmin. I'm just
> saying a stripped down (see above) installation that gets the basics
> in place, unattended, after inputing the necessary configuration
> information would be quite nice.

What necessary configuration information? In Gentoo, everything is
configurable and the user needs to understand this to benefit from Gentoo.

> However, I run those updates at night (unattended) and deal with
> failures the next day.

How do you deal with those failures if your basic understanding f the
system is lacking?

> > hiding that behind a pretty pointy-clicky installer until
> > the system is installed and then hitting the user with the truth can
> > leave them feeling conned. What is wrong with being honest about the
> > situation and telling people up front "if you are not prepared for
> > some reading and typing, Gentoo is not for you".

> I totally disagree with you here. I have many of happy gentoo users
> that are quite novice. Once you install gentoo and get kde-meta
> running, it's quite easy to maintain a gentoo system and add new apps.

Users or user/administrators? Using Gentoo is no different from using any
Linux system, KDE is KDE etc. Administering the system is another matter.

> Bottom line, if folks like that are not attracted to Gentoo, solely
> based on the installation medium and the subsequent pain, then,
> as a distro Gentoo is severely lacking.

Only if one if its stated objectives is (or requires) a simplified
installation process. Attracting someone with a simple installer then
hitting them with reality afterwards is far less friendly. And the Gentoo
manual install is not exactly difficult, it just needs a wilingness to
read the docs.

> Dam bro... I have a lot of respect for you, your skills, and your
> persistence on this list. YOU have helped me quite a lot over time,
> even when I was 'dense' about a few things...however....
> Seems like we had that attitude here
> in America, centuries ago towards black folks.......

Your are comparing a "horses for courses" attitude to distro development
to racism? !!

> Isn't Gentoo as much of an educational system (about unix and computing
> and math and engineering and IT and the web and embedded systems
> and just learning how to be_cool(?), and community; as it
> is a power tool for techies?

Yes it is. How do you learn by clicking a few buttons and letting
everything important happen out of sight and without your knowledge or
understanding?

> Out of the masses Gentoo attracts, there
> will be more cream that rises to the highest levels, or mankind
> is doomed (methinks).  I'm an old, jaded techie, but at least my
> charity to others is not so...............hardened.

If you think I am taking the "installer is an idiot filter" line you are
very much mistaken.  Gentoo has a purpose, and that purpose is different
from the likes of Ubuntu or SUSE. That is not to detract from any of
them, but trying to force one to be like another is doing a great
disservice to both. If Gentoo is not different, serving a different type
of user, what is the point of it?


-- 
Neil Bothwick

I'm Pink, Therefore I'm Spam