Gentoo Archives: gentoo-user

From: Alan Mackenzie <acm@×××.de>
To: gentoo-user@l.g.o
Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is gnome becoming obligatory?
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 19:38:10
Message-Id: 20171213193747.GA4281@ACM
In Reply to: Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is gnome becoming obligatory? by Marc Joliet
1 Hello, Marc.
2
3 On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 12:34:03 +0100, Marc Joliet wrote:
4 > Am Sonntag, 10. Dezember 2017, 11:13:30 CET schrieb Alan Mackenzie:
5
6 > > On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 09:55:45 +0000, Wols Lists wrote:
7
8 [ .... ]
9
10 > > > Granted he's not necessarily the most politic of people, and has ruffled
11 > > > a lot of feathers, but I'd much rather a system he's cleaned up, than a
12 > > > system where everything hangs together on a knife-edge.
13
14 > > His motivation seems to be ego. To force everybody to use his software.
15 > > He did this by, amongst other things, abusing the trust placed in him to
16 > > maintain udev. Early on he abandoned support for udev for everybody but
17 > > users of his new init system, systemd, in an attempt (sadly successful)
18 > > to force "everybody" into using systemd.
19
20 > Of course, the previous maintainer of udev fully supported whatever changes
21 > were made, so you're painting a false picture of a potential different
22 > history.
23
24 Previous maintainers have little, if any, influence on the direction
25 taken by their successors.
26
27 > > I've no idea how good systemd is. It's not been through the normal
28 > > process of choice and selection that other successful packages have. It
29 > > was forced on people. But being forced to have a binary system log,
30 > > being forced (so I have heard) to have an http server running, ....,
31 > > doesn't make it an attractive package for me.
32
33 > *All* of this is "so I have heard". What happened to researching stuff as the
34 > better alternative to speaking out of your ass?
35
36 What have I done to deserve this abusive style of repartee? I have never
37 doled this out to anybody on this list in the past, and have no intention
38 of doing so in the future.
39
40 Yes, there are a lot of "so I have heard"s in my posts. Asking people on
41 this list to confirm or refute things is a form of research, and a lot
42 more efficient than many other ones.
43
44 There are several tens of thousands of packages in Gentoo, and I lack the
45 time personally to investigate each one. Asking people who already use
46 them and post on this list is a normal thing to do. Answering questions
47 about packages one oneself uses is the flip side of that coin.
48
49 > Speaking for myself, I *switched to* systemd fully on my own, and definitely
50 > do *not* regret it.
51
52 This is a fair enough thing to say, but it is lacking any technical
53 detail. Most posts on this list praising systemd are similarly lacking
54 in such detail, leaving people like me depending on the vague "so I have
55 heard"s we pick up.
56
57 > I can't speak for all distros, but all of the ones I know of switched
58 > willingly, because for them (as for me), systemd was the better choice.
59
60 And it had nothing to do with the withdrawal of support for udev, an
61 essential component of PC GNU/Linux systems, for every init system but
62 systemd, did it? Or is that what you mean by "the better choice"?
63
64 > You're not against choice, are you ;-) ?
65
66 Indeed not, which is why I've found the actions of the originator of
67 systemd so regrettable. He attempted to remove the choice of init
68 system. The maintainers of gnome did the same. I regret these actions
69 and more.
70
71 I use Gentoo, partly because here I have a deal of choice.
72
73 My choices are not merely technical but also political. GNU/Linux
74 originated for political reasons, laudable ones, including giving end
75 users choice. systemd also originated for political reasons, less
76 laudable, including reducing users' choice.
77
78 > > > Cheers,
79 > > > Wol
80
81 > Greetings
82 > --
83 > Marc Joliet
84 > --
85 > "People who think they know everything really annoy those of us who know we
86 > don't" - Bjarne Stroustrup
87
88 --
89 Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Replies

Subject Author
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is gnome becoming obligatory? Kai Peter <kp@×××××××××××××××.org>
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is gnome becoming obligatory? Marc Joliet <marcec@×××.de>