Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Anyone switched to eudev yet?

[Daniel Wagener]

On Mon, 24 Dec 2012 14:00:39 -0600
Dale <rdalek1967@×××××.com> wrote:

> Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > On Mon, 24 Dec 2012 06:58:15 -0600
> > Dale <rdalek1967@×××××.com> wrote:
> >
> >> So, Nuno, everything was fine until they started moving things to a
> >> place where it shouldn't be.
> > No Dale, that is just flat out wrong.
> >
> > There is no such thing as "place where stuff should be". There are
> > only conventions, and like all conventions, rituals, fashions and
> > traditions these are prone to breakage when things move on. Things
> > move on because they become way more complex than the designer of
> > the convention thought they would (or could).
> >
> > The truth is simply this (derived from empirical observation):
> >
> > Long ago we had established conventions about / and /usr; mostly
> > because the few sysadmins around agreed on some things. In those
> > days there was no concept of a packager or maintainer, there was
> > only a sysadmin. This person was a lot like me - he decided and if
> > you didn't like it that was tough. So things stayed as they were
> > for a very long time.
> >
> > Thankfully, it is not like that anymore and the distinction between
> > / and /usr is now so blurry there might as well not be a
> > distinction. Which is good as the distinction wasn't exactly a good
> > thing from day 1 either - it was useful for terminal servers (only
> > by convention) and let the sysadmin keep his treasured uptime
> > (which only proves he isn't doing kernel maintenance...)
> >
> > I'm sorry you bought into the crap about / and /usr that people of
> > my ilk foisted on you, but the time for that is past, and things
> > move on. If there is to be a convention, there can be only one that
> > makes any sense:
> >
> > / and /usr are essentially the same, so put your stuff anywhere you
> > want it to be. ironically this no gives you the ultimate in choice,
> > not the false one you had for years. So if your /usr is say 8G, then
> > enlarge / bu that amount, move /usr over and retain all your mount
> > points as the were. Now for the foreseeable future anything you
> > might want to hotplug at launch time stands a very good chance of
> > working as expected.
> >
> > You will only need an initrd if you have / on striped RAID or LVM or
> > similar, but that is a boot strap problem not a /usr problem (and
> > you do not have such a setup). Right now you need an initrd anyway
> > to boot such setups.
> >
> > The design of separate / and /usr on modern machines IS broken by
> > design. It is fragile and causes problems in the large case. This
> > doesn't mean YOUR system is broken and won't boot, it means it
> > causes unnecessary hassle in the whole ecosystem, and the fix is to
> > change behaviour and layout to something more appropriate to what
> > we have today.
> >
>
> The problems with that is these:  It worked ALL these years, why
> should it not now?  I have / on a traditional partition which is not
> going to resize easily.  If I put / on LVM, I need a init thingy.  I
> don't want a init thingy or I would have put / on LVM too.  I made /
> large enough that I would not fill it up in the lifetime of this
> system but not large enough to absorb /usr.  If I am going to have to
> redo all my partitions yet again, I will not use LVM.  I use LVM to
> eliminate this EXACT problem.  I got tired of running out of space
> and having to move stuff around all the time.
>
> So, worked for ages, then it breaks when people change where they put
> things.  Answer is, don't change where you put things.  Then things
> still work for most everyone, including me.  I'm not a programmer nor
> am I a rocket scientist but even I can see that.  If I can see it, I
> have no idea why a programmer can't other than being willingly
> blinded.  ;-)
>
> Udev/systemd seems to be the problem.  How do I come to that
> conclusion, eudev people says they will support separate /usr with no
> init thingy. Either the eudev folks are rocket scientist type
> programmers and the udev/systemd people are playing with fire
> crackers or there is a way for this to work with udev/systemd to, IF
> they wanted it to work.  Thing is, they have some grand scheme to
> force people to their way of doing things, which includes a init
> thingy.  Since there is a way to continue with the old way, which has
> worked for decades, guess what I am going to do?  Yep, I'm going to
> jump off the udev ship and onto the eudev ship. The eudev ship may be
> old and traditional but it works like I expect. Now if others want to
> stay on the current ship, works for me too.  I'm just not liking the
> meals served on the udev ship anymore.
>
> I might add, one of the reasons I left Mandriva was because of the
> init thingy that kept giving me grief.  If I have to use that thing on
> Gentoo, the first time it breaks, I'm going to a binary install.  If I
> am going to put up with that mess, I may as well have something that
> installs quickly.  That was one thing I liked about Mandriva, install
> was really easy.  It still is.  Ubuntu is too.  Actually, they look a
> lot alike to me.
>
> Everyone can have their opinion but I also have mine.  This worked
> fine for ages until udev/systemd came along.  That's my opinion and I
> don't think I am alone on that.
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)
>

Is this actually about something being broken like in "the code does
not do what it is supposed to" or about something no longer being the
tool of choice for everyone?

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