Gentoo Archives: gentoo-user

From: Caveman Al Toraboran <toraboracaveman@××××××××××.com>
To: "gentoo-user@l.g.o" <gentoo-user@l.g.o>
Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] tips on running a mail server in a cheap vps provider run but not-so-trusty admins?
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 13:00:54
Message-Id: ogPO1iAcT7lx8EUMxzXyalYxd6xBiNU__exsR7xadzgbsKR7lVylndbqm0g2HcgOFprzqhs79M0cffHXKlm7cEoYBlBQea6ffg5eypayHBU=@protonmail.com
In Reply to: Re: [gentoo-user] tips on running a mail server in a cheap vps provider run but not-so-trusty admins? by Grant Taylor
1 ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
2 On Thursday, August 27, 2020 12:21 AM, Grant Taylor <gtaylor@×××××××××××××××××××××.net> wrote:
3
4 > email email email
5 > SMTP SMTP POP3S/IMAPS
6 > A) [1]---(TCP)---[2]---(TCP)---[3]---(TCP)---[4]
7 >
8 > Now what you are proposing:
9 >
10 > email email email
11 > TBD TBD TBD
12 > HTTPS HTTPS HTTPS
13 > A) [1]---(TCP)---[2]---(TCP)---[3]---(TCP)---[4]
14 >
15 > The number of layers has increased from three to four.
16
17 that's true if "SMTP" is a single layer.
18
19 which is also how networking engineers including
20 those highly skilled ones in standard bodies
21 commonly commonly talk about protocols (e.g. based
22 on layers of that sort). so i see why it makes
23 sense that you did it this way.
24
25 but i this way of looking at protocols (despite
26 being common) is wrong. i also disagree with the
27 network layering proposed by osi or the other ones
28 commonly published in books. i specially disagree
29 with using such layering for studying the
30 complexity of protocols.
31
32 so i suggest that if we want to study the
33 complexity of messaging systems, we better not
34 count SMTP as a single thing (like how it is
35 normally done in books and talks), but instead
36 talk about it based on the fundamental tasks that
37 it actually does. this way, SMTP becomes at least
38 2 layers:
39
40 1. "resource exchange" layer where binaries are
41 made into a single giant text file by base64
42 encoding and then partitioned by rfc822.
43 this part overlaps with http* and is much
44 less efficient (rightfully, since email had
45 to be backwards compatible as it is
46 critical).
47
48 2. "resource use" where the mail server parses
49 such exchanged resources (e.g. email bodies,
50 attachments, etc) and then acts upon them
51 (e.g. forward them, discard them, etc).
52
53 and so will pop* and imap.
54
55 this way, if we ignore the problem of maintaining
56 backwards compatibility, then having http* in the
57 "resource exchange" layer would be more efficient
58 and simpler as there will be less protocols doing
59 the "resource exchange" task (instead of having
60 each do its own).
61
62 i also think that the kind of resource that email
63 exchanges is fundamentally identical to a subset
64 of resources that are natively exchanged in the
65 web.
66
67 so i think the only reason that smtp/pop/imap have
68 different resource exchange protocols is purely
69 due to backwards compatibility due to how things
70 evolved historically.
71
72 -----
73
74 i suspect that we actually agree on everything,
75 but speak different languages (possibly due to how
76 books commonly talk about protocols and layering),
77 or assume things beyond what's written.
78
79 e.g. we agree that:
80
81 1. smtp/pop*/imap make the best messaging
82 system today, and is not going away any time
83 soon, thanks to its wide spread. most likely
84 i'll be dead and still have multiple active
85 smtp/imap/pop account.
86
87 2. smtp/imap/pop are imperfect and have many
88 shortcomings that are "rightfully" not solved
89 "cleanly" due to historical reasons and its
90 critical nature which imposed on us
91 the constraint of having to maintaining its
92 backwards compatibility.
93
94 3. trying new protocols is fine. and is also
95 fine to have sub-communities that use
96 different messaging protocols if they find it
97 more fitting.
98
99 e.g. i'll probably end up using smtp/imap for
100 talking to people in general, and use hillarymail
101 [1] for talking to a closer nerdy community.
102
103 [1] https://github.com/al-caveman/hillarymail

Replies

Subject Author
Re: [gentoo-user] tips on running a mail server in a cheap vps provider run but not-so-trusty admins? Grant Taylor <gtaylor@×××××××××××××××××××××.net>