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Hi, Canek. |
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|
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On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 02:09:46PM -0500, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: |
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> On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Alan Mackenzie <acm@×××.de> wrote: |
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|
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> Hi Alan. |
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|
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> > On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 12:02:38PM -0500, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: |
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> >> On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Alan Mackenzie <acm@×××.de> wrote: |
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> >> [snip] |
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> > Anytime a free software project drops support for something, it |
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> > forces its users to make choices. Yes, force. |
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> I don't think that's true, since we are not paying anyone to do the |
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> work (well, at least for sure I'm not paying anyone to do anything). |
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> They (the developers) don't owe us *anything*. |
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|
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In a sense, no. But in another very important sense, yes. Without that |
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sense of duty, of obligation, on the part of developers over the last few |
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decades, GNU, Linux, X, BSD, ... would scarcely rate as more than toys. |
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|
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[ ..... ] |
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|
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> If you want to get into morals, this will become a religious argument, |
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> and sorry but I'm not interested in that. |
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Fair enough! |
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> > The prime one is to support their users. |
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> No; the prime one is to do their jobs. Most of them are employed by |
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> several of the available Open Source supporting companies; their |
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> responsibilities is to do the job they are being paid to do. If they |
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> are hobbyist, then their prime "responsibility" is to do whatever the |
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> hell they want to (and gets accepted in a community project). |
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Again, fair enough. But that's just as "religious" a viewpoint as my |
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own. |
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|
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> > You'll surely have noticed that what gets up the |
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> > noses of people on this mailing list most is when support for reasonable |
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> > configurations gets dropped. Witness all the recent trouble over eth0, |
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> > for example. |
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|
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> What problem? I use NetworkManager in desktop and laptop; there is no |
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> problem there. I read the instructions in my media center and servers: |
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> no problems there. I don't particularly like the new funny names, but |
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> I don't write the code, and the fruits from it I get for free, so I |
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> don't complain about it. |
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Some Gentooers had problems over this change. I didn't have "problems" |
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as such, but the time spent not having these problems could, I feel, have |
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been better spent. |
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> > If you were serious about this exponential growth, how on earth could, |
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> > e.g., the Linux kernel or Emacs, both with thousands of options[*], |
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> > possibly get tested anywhere near acceptably? |
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> > [*] 12,666 in Linux 3.7.10, 7,510 in vanilla Emacs 24.3. |
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|
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> Because they have enough integration testers. They have enough |
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> interested users to do the required testing; the kernel and Emacs is |
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> oriented towards technical apt users. The stated goal of the GNOME |
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> project is that even my grandmother could use it. |
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I understand what you're saying. In the limit, this tight integration |
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will lead to a system barely capable of being customised. It will be as |
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inflexible as MS Windows always has been. Will your GM want to use such |
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a system? |
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|
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[ .... ] |
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|
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> > What about the needs of those high-end audio users, for example, who need |
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> > jack? |
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> There are several success stories about mixing PA with Jack; you can |
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> Google them. I don't see the problem. |
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I'm not an expert on jack, but I gather it's high-endedness implies very |
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low latency, for example. Feeding a signal through pulseaudio as well |
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would negate the whole purpose of jack. Maybe. |
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> > What about those, like me, with audio problems, where the need exists to |
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> > strip a system down so as to isolate those problems? |
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> As I said below: if PA has problems, they need to be fixed. Did you |
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> report the bugs? |
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I don't even know where the bug is. It's somewhere in my audio. It |
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might be in Firefox 17.0.5. It might be in pulseaudio, though having |
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been able to remove it, I doubt it. It might be in ALSA. My point is, |
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in a tightly integrated system, my chances of fixing the problem would be |
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that much slimmer. I don't experience the problem in my fossilised mdev |
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system from last summer. |
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> >> If PA has bugs in some configuration, those bugs need to be fixed; the |
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> >> solution (in the GNOME developers view) is not to "remove PA", since |
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> >> the goal of the project is to cover *ALL* use cases. |
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> > pulseaudio is a server component - gnome is an application. They are at |
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> > different levels of the system hierarchy, just as a mail transport agent |
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> > and mail user agent are. The maintainers of mutt don't force the use of, |
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> > say, postfix. By long tradition on *nix, sysadmins configure their own |
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> > systems, selecting those components which best fit their needs. gnome's |
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> > decision to mandate pulseaudio interferes with this tradition. IMAO, |
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> > this is a Bad Thing. |
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> GNOME is a desktop environment, and it wants (from some years now) a |
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> vertical integration from kernel to the last userspace application. I |
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> root for that. |
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That would probably be an environment I couldn't configure to work the |
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way I want. Gnome and I will likely be parting company in the coming |
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years. |
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> And I have been using Unix since 1996, and I don't care about what |
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> *nix "long traditions" are. I want a Linux system that works from my |
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> cellphone to my big iron server, and everything in between. I don't |
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> even care about *BSD; I don't wish them any ill, but I don't care |
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> about them. |
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|
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You can't have a single Linux which works equally well on all these |
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disparate systems. Equally badly, perhaps. Look at the problems which |
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MS Windows-8 is having, and it only tries desktops/laptops and 'phones. |
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> If you don't agree with that, that's fine; but if a big enough set of |
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> developers thinks similarly, several projects will move in that |
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> direction. It's already happening. |
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Yes. I doubt it will end prettily. |
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[ .... ] |
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> and then the only required dependency for systemd will be Linux. |
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> Man, that will be a nice day. |
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Will you still be able to configure your system as you wish, though? |
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> Regards. |
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> -- |
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> Canek Peláez Valdés |
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|
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-- |
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Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). |