Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Council vs Umbrella Corp ?

[james]

On 8/28/20 2:10 PM, james wrote:
> On 8/28/20 1:20 PM, Dale wrote:
>> Jack wrote:
>>> On 8/28/20 12:33 PM, james wrote:
>>>> On 8/27/20 10:11 PM, Dale wrote:
>>>>> james wrote:
>>>>>> Gentoo,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://blogs.gentoo.org/mgorny/2020/08/25/is-an-umbrella-organization-a-good-choice-for-gentoo/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Surely some of the business/legal savvy folks want to "chime in"
>>>>>> on Sir Gorny's proposal?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just read this on 'hacker news'
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It just sounds like mostly a lack of fund raising to operate?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> James
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There's several issues that lead to this.� For ages, the
>>>>> financial books were not kept up to date.� From what I recall,
>>>>> some paperwork was lost which made it difficult to impossible to do
>>>>> the needed IRS filings.� Things on that part seemed to snowball
>>>>> from there.� In the past few years or so, that has been dealt
>>>>> with and from what I've read, it is now up to date and they are
>>>>> trying to get back in good standing with the IRS and other Govt
>>>>> entities.� I think I read where most of the hard work as already
>>>>> been done, just needs time to kick in.� It isn't hard to get into
>>>>> that situation, it just takes one year with a mistake to trigger
>>>>> bad things.� It takes a lot of work to get it cleared up tho.�
>>>>> All of us should be grateful to the ones who put in the hard work
>>>>> to get that taken care of.� I'm sure it took a lot of effort and
>>>>> time to get that done.� I'm sure it was boring as heck to do as
>>>>> well.� Some of us would likely have no hair left.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another issue, not many want to run the foundation.� The devs
>>>>> mostly want to write code.� They aren't to much interested in
>>>>> running the foundation part of it.� A few do because it is needed
>>>>> and they do their best, some even go far beyond that, but they
>>>>> really want to write code.� That's what developers came to Gentoo
>>>>> for after all. Since there is two different bodies that run Gentoo
>>>>> in different ways, it further reduces the number of people wanting
>>>>> to do the job.� The foundation part is from my understanding,
>>>>> bureaucratic paperwork.� Who wants to do that for free?�
>>>>> There's not many. Basically, if you run for a position on the
>>>>> foundation, it's good odds you get it because usually just enough
>>>>> run to fill the open spots.� I often wonder, do they draw straws
>>>>> to pick people to run just so things keep chugging along??� LOL
>>>>>
>>>>> Then there is the costs.� It costs to deal with all the paperwork
>>>>> and filings.� There's state filings as well as federal.�
>>>>> Missing either of those can cause trouble for the other and also
>>>>> get expensive and time consuming to correct.� Again, very few
>>>>> want to deal with it.� The few that do likely do it because
>>>>> Gentoo needs it not because they are jumping up and down wanting to
>>>>> do it.� It's what keeps Gentoo going. It's cheaper to join some
>>>>> other group like has been talked about for years and let them take
>>>>> a percentage of the money and them as professionals handle all that
>>>>> nasty paperwork and filings.
>>>>>
>>>>> My personal opinion.� I'm still leaning to keep Gentoo as it is
>>>>> but I'm not the one doing all the boring work either.� My
>>>>> concern, Gentoo joins some group and it ends badly for Gentoo.�
>>>>> Maybe they screw up something and that puts Gentoo and maybe
>>>>> everyone else in the group in jeopardy with govt entities or
>>>>> lawsuits.� On the other hand, if Gentoo doesn't have the right
>>>>> people, they could do the same thing to themselves.� The people
>>>>> who do run for those seats do try their best even if something goes
>>>>> wrong.� Thing is, it doesn't take much to run afoul of govt
>>>>> entities or trigger a lawsuit. Gentoo has been lucky in that
>>>>> regard.� There is no easy answer to this.� Either way has
>>>>> advantages.� Same can be said for disadvantages as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure there is more that isn't known to the public and I'm sure
>>>>> some things are escaping my mind at the moment.� Either way,
>>>>> whatever keeps Gentoo going and successful, that is what needs to
>>>>> be done.� Since I don't have a crystal ball, I'm not sure which
>>>>> is best long term.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now someone add more to this.� ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Dale
>>>>>
>>>>> :-)� :-)
>>>>
>>>> The referenced article says this:
>>>>
>>>> "Right now we�re already relying on a CPA to handle our filings.
>>>> For a commercial company (we are one now), the cost is $1500 a year."
>>>>
>>>> Seems way too high. I pay $500/yr for a C corp here in Florida; a
>>>> firm that that is "outstanding" with the US IRS.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "If we wanted to go for proper non-profit, the estimated cost is
>>>> between $2000 and $3000 a year."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Still seems way to high. With Gentoo, we can use Any state, so why
>>>> not move the home to a low cost state?
>>>>
>>>> Many corps use Delaware, just for that reason.
>>> I think most of those listed numbers are not just the official filing
>>> fees, but include paying a CPA to do the filings.� While certified
>>> CPA is not required to do any of those filings, I suspect it is now
>>> that way because historically, the volunteer who was supposed to do
>>> it didn't.� Paying someone does seem excessively expensive, but you
>>> know it will get done, and if not, you have some legal recourse.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "If we were to pass full accounting to an external company, the
>>>> rough estimate I�ve been given by Trustees is $2400. So once our
>>>> volunteer bookkeeper retires, we�re talking of around $4000 +
>>>> larger taxes for a corporation, or $4500 to $5500 + very little
>>>> taxes for a non-profit."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Again, these numbers are WAY TOO HIGH. Shop around!
>>>> Many states are way less expensive.
>>> Again, I think those numbers are to pay someone to handle the
>>> filings, not just the fees.� I don't suppose it really changes much
>>> about the discussion.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ok so ask why don't I volunteer? I've been using gentoo, since 2002.
>>>> I have made many enemies, because of my views on the whole "install"
>>>> abortion. WE could easily help another loosely coupled, gentoo
>>>> derivative distro
>>>> create a robust, easy install system, whilst leaving "Gentoo Proper"
>>>> as an enclave for the brilliant.
>>>>
>>>> It there were agreement to that sort "diatribe", enthusiastically,
>>>> THEN I could help the trustee situation, and help bring in lots of
>>>> cash to pay devs for what every reason the technical leaders decide.
>>>>
>>>> CoreOS, gentoo-install (Mike Mol), CloverOS, and dozens and dozens
>>>> (over the years) have solved this problem, bot did not receive any
>>>> love or praise from the Gentoo devs......
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So, if Gentoo wants money, as a charity, it is so simple, it hurts.
>>>> BUT a few things have to change (non-negotiable)!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've done this too many times with dozens of folks. ALL are
>>>> multi-millionaires. MONEY is easy, but it does come with strings
>>>> (actually very few for something like gentoo).� The current
>>>> situation is pathetic and easy to fix. Be warned, when it comes to
>>>> money, and I am on the responsibility chain, I tend to be a bit
>>>> dictatorial. Once the money starts flowing in, I'd look to hand
>>>> things off to a much younger techie, so he(she) can build there
>>>> resume and I can drift back into oblivion,
>>>> in a cabin, in the woods.......
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> For me, it just breaks my heart to see Gentoo needed to have one of
>>>> our (currently) awesome coders have to "prostrate" himself publicly
>>>> like this. But, if a broken system/leadership is broken, then that
>>>> is the sign things need to change. This has been a recurring
>>>> situation, for 2 decades now. Just look around, most other distros
>>>> have so much 'action' going on, they are rolling in cabbage.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps the Gentoo council members ought to engage the gentoo-user
>>>> list, directly? Surely others would have solution, very viable, to
>>>> what I have proposed?
>>>>
>>>> The second thing I'd do, if on the council, is have a direct program
>>>> for High School age kids to use Gentoo to become entrepreneurs.
>>>> That's right, how to form a C-corp, write some codes and start
>>>> receiving funds directly into their C-corp. Minimum goal? Self
>>>> Funding for Secondary education. Learn Business via gentoo, and
>>>> coding "from the masters" aka gentoo devs.
>>>>
>>>> There are tons of methods for young entrepreneurs to access funding
>>>> and grants, if you "get your house in order". For that, it means a
>>>> simple Rasp. Pi. 4 sourcecode install? The microprocessor companies
>>>> would line up to build boards, for these kids. EASY as PIE!
>>>>
>>>> Be Bold and Be Bad_ass, if you want to live and prosper in this day
>>>> and age.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> painfully,
>>>> James
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> I agree there is likely more done with those fees than just filing
>> paperwork.� I've read there is a CPA involved and I recall lawyer
>> being mentioned a few times too.
>
> CPAs are a dime a dozen, if you know where to look. I have a board
> certified, Lawyer+CPA that does my hi end stuff for free. But I give him
> much more in the way of technology and engineering skills. He is filthy
> rich, owns an island in the Carribean and travels the world.

It'd be an outstanding opportunity to put Gentoo on a cell phone, for 
guys like this to use. Or perhaps get a gentoo dev to put Gentoo on a 
cell phone and give a free one to the governor's office  in that state 
and say
"wow, look what a high school kid did with Gentoo". Governors just love 
that sort of promo.....

>
> Surely Calif. and Texas and Delaware are full of such masters of the law,
> taxes and charities....
>
>
>  �> Another thing, some devs aren't even in the
>> USA.� I'm sure any expenses related to things they do are more
>> complicated to file.
>
> Wrong. The get a credit card and put expenses on that, that benefit a US
> charity; 100% tax deductible,� if the expenditure "benefits or is
> essential" to the charity. It's call "case law". Any CPA, with a lawyer
> in good standing in the US, knows all about this. Gentoo is FAMOUS,
> globally. USE IT! WE can get a real bad has to handle gentoo, legally
> and financially. But, surely there will be new rules, some do not like.
> TOUGH.

Those expenditures, by a gentoo dev, anywhere globally, are 100% tax 
deductible,
as long at that dev follows USA IRS tax rules, including BS fees by 
foreign countries. Dirt Simple to implement.

>
>  �> Since the GSoC thing is almost always
>> international, I'm sure it requires more detailed tracking and time to
>> compile the info. Given that air traffic, read that as mail
>> services, between the USA and other countries is shutdown due to the
>> bug, that may complicate things even more.
>>
>> I think the person who is handling things now might could do the
>> paperwork and filing BUT it takes time.

Sorry, that was a very emotional response, with too many errors. Fix below.
>
>
> Dude. It's call "gnucash". Those that act as or get paid or spend Gentoo
> funds, input the data, the same day, into a Gentoo-GNUcash system. At
> tax time, it takes an accountant, minutes to generate a tax return.

I have done this for a decade now, with CPAs loving gnucash. TIMELY 
documentation, fixes all of this. If it does not pass USA-IRS deduction 
rules, which are very lenient, just like USA churches, then there are 
rarely issues. Liquor and massages are excluded.


> Initiation and use  of overseas accounting, accounts and such is a receipt
> for an audit. DONT DO THAT!>�� = DIRT SIMPLE.
> Done it for decades. You want to please the IRS?
> Dont do business with China. DIRT SIMPLE.
>

Let the Chinese techies form Gentoo-China and deal with the Chinese 
government, and raise their own funds. Problem Solved.

>
>> I think they spent most of their time trying to fix history not more
>> recent things.
>
> That is done, move on.

It's a non-issue now. Gentoo, currently in good standing. James, via 
lawyers, know how to put and keep gentoo in "pristine standing" with the 
USA IRS. Dirt simple, if you have the right attorneys.

>
>
>> From the sound of it, getting back in to the good graces of the IRS
>> was a difficult and time consuming ordeal.
>
>
> That's because they used THE WRONG LAWYER!
>
>  �> Let's keep in mind, that person as far as I know
>> is not paid.
>
> Fix the broken/arcane install, and we'll have plenty of cash to utilize.
>
>
>> They spend time on it as they can just like devs do with code. If
>> they have a bad week at work, that could mean nothing Gentoo gets done
>> that week.After all, real life has to be looked after first.
>
> Timely entries into a Gentoo-gnucash system fixes all of that,
> instantaneously. NO EXCEPTIONS.

A few trips to DC, meetings, and new behavior will put Gentoo on the 
"short list" for many global charity functions, and includes legal 
funding. Big churches fly around in private Jets, all 100% tax free. You 
think with the right lawyer(s) Gentoo cannot impress the world?

Again, the right lawyer.

>>
>> As to forking, its been done before. As a general rule, someone
>> thinks they have a much better plan so off they go. Most don't make
>> it long and so far, I don't think any of the survivors have come close
>> to the success of Gentoo itself.� I've never really seen the sense
>> in forking as long as Gentoo is still working and serving a persons need.

So you saying that "smarty pants" did not make money off of CoreOS?  Are 
you sure you want to stand by that position? Any idea what RedHat and 
IBM paid smarty pants? He's on food stamps now, right?


> EASE of installation mean more members means more spending money to make
> the distro, great again.

And it gives kids(HS and college) HOPE!


>> Sort of waiting for Rich to chime in here. He likely knows more of
>> what is going on plus may remember things better than me.� ;-)
>
> I have a history of pissing off folks with the truth. The truth is
> thousands of corporations have made billions of dollars with gentoo. The
> retarded installation system is just a filter to keep others,
> with less money, from having access to an easy gentoo install.
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> :-)� :-)
>
> Dale, my strong response to you, is not a personal attack or in any way
> negative. I appreciate your contributions to gentoo and this tread-idea.
>
> But when one of our technical leaders, mgorny, who is totally awesome,
> has to prostrate himself publicly on "Hacker News" it is time for a
> drastic change, financially. If others have that fix, please step
> forward. The fact that nobody wants to volunteer for the Gentoo councils,
> translates into this distro is in trouble.
>
> So here is a little further detail on what I propose. Each of the Gentoo
> council members needs to be responsible, individually, for bringing in
> funds to Gentoo. The funds they each bring in, are under singular
> authority to spend, to the benefit of the Gentoo distribution. (IRS RULES)
>
> Half of those funds, raised by that council member, go directly to the
> techies to decide how to spend (a budget). (IRS LEGALLY)
>
> The other half are directly managed by that council member; to be spent
> as he/she sees fit. The US IRS has rules, standards and plethora of
> documents delineating the details of what can and what cannot be spent
> however.

MUST BE FOLLOWED


> A council member, from say England, could manage how 1/2 of what they
> raise  as to how it is spent. It could even  be "english centric" but must comply with USA
> IRS standards. Our council could be expanded to many members, from other
> countries, with a centric goal of spending Gentoo funds
> (1/2 of what they raise) in any country they choose subject to USA tax
> standards). Realize many churches in the USA (501-c) do just that. WHY
> the USA? I'm glad you asked. Charities, in good standing with the USA
> IRS, can pretty much articulate GLOBALLY, without fear. Most foreign
> government, imho, have less standing in the world. It is  codified as TAX
> TREATIES and most governments of the world have such agreements with the USA IRS.
> It's the gold standard for global finance.� England use to be pretty
> close to bad-ass, but the whole EU clusterF put quite a tarnish,
> internationally on the English banking system.
> YMMV.
>
>
> DIRT simple to fix. James is going to focus on the USA,
> and getting thousands of high school kids into their own corporations, being a
> Gentoo dev; and MAKING MONEY THEY CONTROL.

College kids, with technical (gentoo) skills) can easily follow the model.


> Without the council AND the Gentoo devs signing on to a program like
> this; at 100% my costs, to prime the pump, then I'm not interested in active participation.
>
> Dale, you are deeply appreciated. If other technical moguls disagree,
> let them form Geetoo-whatever, in another country, gentoo-china(?) and
> run their own charity according to those rules.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/taxtreaty.asp

and yes the USA IRS has an "obfuscation approach" on this subject:

https://www.irs.gov/publications/p514

That's why the right CPA-ATTORNEY is key. Our IRS obfuscating the truth 
so charities pay more than necessary? NO, that cannot be true?

Just follow the example of one of the "megga churches",
but they "have the right attorney".

So to start, simplify by just keeping the funds and accounting, here in 
the good old USA. Let others start gentoo centric charities in other 
countries. Dirt Simple.



>
> Truly, there is no other globally recognized tax system
> like the USA-IRS (bad ass && world class open). That's why in times of
> trouble, entrepreneurs world wide flock to the "dollar". Also, being in
> elite standing with the USA-IRS opens many  doors to enhance and
> promote and deploy GENTOO globally.
>
>
> sincerely,
> James Horton, PE
> (actually in good standing)
>

I hope these fixes and additions are more pleasing to the reader.

James